Now I'm really worried!

"Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote in message
.. .
Hi Oz,

Just one thing, which isn't really important at the moment...I tried
taking
the plants out of their pots and got into a total mess (especially with
the
clowns digging them up). Also makes it a bit harder when cleaning the
gravel - a job normally reserved for "hubby" as he's got more strength in
his arms than I do these days - plants go everywhere - (wish he was as
vigourous with the vaccuum cleaner in the house - lol)....at least it is
easier to reposition them if they are contained in pots....

I don't find an issue with potted plants in my tank. The root systems seem
to really take off in this tank.

I lifted (or tried to one of my giant Hygro. this evening and I couldn't
get it out of the gravel. What roots I did see where a brilliant white, so
that's a good thing - my plants are very healthy generally it seems. They
were all pearling away again today, so I think it's all about right on the
aqua-flora front

I find with plants in substrate, the sooner and better their root balls
develop the less chance they have of being up-rooted by accident or digging
fish. Most of my plants have been there long enough to have developed
natural anchoring, except the newest additions, which were the Dwarf Blue
Strica, Hygrophilia polysperma and a plant that looks like a large leafed
Pennywort (the name escapes me atm).

They have up-rooted at various times during the last few days from gravel
siphoning, but what has lifted has revealed root balls well on their way. I
also figure that if I am going to replant then the transplant shock will be
less on these newer plants than on the quite established ones.

I had to cut the polysperma back this evening actually because it was
starting to grow out of the top of the tank I am amazed at how easy and
rewarding aquatic gardening can be as lonng as you properly light, fertilize
and plant in the first place.

It's actually funny in a way - I thought I would have the most trouble with
the plants, but it's actually the reverse - trouble with the fish and
success with the plants.


When it comes to adding chemicals pH has to be a major
concern....chemicals
can react differently depending on whether added to acid, alkaline or
neutral substances. I would research very carefully before going down this
route. Yours is borderline acid/neutral at the moment in the tank and your
tap water is alkaline as far as I can tell from your postings....I'm not a
chemist so I'm not sure of the exact implications of adding the Potassium
Permanganate but I know someone who is...too late to phone them now but I
should be able to talk to them tomorrow if it would help....

I can't get PP atm, so the lovely lady at the LFS I frequent most (LFS#1 I
call it) gave me a bottle each of MelaFix and PimaFix on credit.

I have performed a 30% water change and gravel vacuuming, and I rinsed the
the sponges and changed to new filter floss in the filters before a dosing
of Tri-sulfur medication which I already had.

This turned the water white milky for an hour or so and no-one seemed to be
bothered by it. When I moved the second filter to get the basket off it I
also discovered the dead Neon I haven't been able to find for the last 24
hours, trapped behind the bracket.

I then waited another hour or so and I dosed with a combination of MelaFix
and PimaFix at the recommended dose (5ml per 40L). The fish did something
quite amazing - they all got into their species and shoaled around the tank.
The MelaFix really stank of Tea Tree and I thought I may have over dosed, in
combination with the Tri-sulfur a few hours before.

I noticed about 30 minutes later after the shoaling behaviour stopped a
couple of the Serpaes and both female Swordtails dashing themselves on the
substrate breifly - I was actually glad to see this - I think it was
behaviour indicative of ridding themselves of parasites, flukes or other
pests. I haven't seen anything come out of the fish, and at lights out all
of their coats looked very healthy. The Serpae males are the darkest orange
I've ever seen them and they fluttering about the place and "dancing" around
the females. The male Black Phantoms were doing the same thing but they were
almost jet black - a blue black - beautiful to see and watch.

I then topped the remainder of the tank up with about 15% of it's water with
an ammonia neutralising water conditioner for my peace of mind.

Then I noticed my lone Mystery Snail having resparitory problems at the
front of the tank on the substrate, so I removed it immediately and washed
it in some of the prechange tank water and placed it in the tank with the
BATs. I may lose it because it wasn't that active in the smaller tank. I
think the Tri-Sulfur may have had an effect on it because I'm pretty sure
the XXXXfix meds didn't do it.

Perhaps I should have waited for a day before dosing with the XXXXfix
solutions, but apart from the snail there is nothing more than a white
covering on the glass surfaces (I expected this because the filters would
have been knocked out by the Tri-Sulfur and the XXXXfix add organics to the
water - so any bacteria I would expect to turn white).

I'll actually leave it for now as the deaths seem to have stopped and there
are no visible symptoms at all on any of the remaining fish, and seeing the
glass turned cloudy white, I am pretty sure all bacteria in the tank was
actually gotten at by these combo meds.

Time will tell now. I'll do a water change in 3 days time and keep my eye on
the creatures. The pH was measured at hourly intervals over about 5 hours
and never went off neutral (7.0) the whole time. I didn't measure hardness
this time beacuse I was too busy freaking out about over-dosing

If after the water change, in 3 day, I notice any more symptoms then I have
enough XXXXfix solutions to apply the recommended dosages for 7 days as
advised on the bottles.

I could do another tri-sulfur too, but I am hesitant to use that stuff
because it's pretty severe.

I don't fancy turning the tank pink with PP and then oxidising/neutralising
it with Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2)/ Too much messing with quite dangerous
chemicals for my liking - there is too much at stake atm.

Just waiting and monitoring for now....


If this is always present in the water - which seems to be what everyone
is
saying - maybe it is down to treating the symptoms right now to sort the
fish and then taking a step back and review to stopping it happening
again....maybe it isn't possible to get rid of permanently, maybe we all
have it in our tanks..... Anyway see what your LFS says...

LFS lady tells me it's always in every tank and in almost every fish. It's a
matter of providing the right seeding conditions for it to break out. She
assures me that applying the tri-sulfur in combination with the XXXXfix'es
will kill it everywhere it is in the tank atm, but warns me that it could
return if I don't keep my gravel clean, water changed and stable or I
introduce stressed fish without quaranting them. She also states that most
Flex comes on fish from a LFS and really drummed it into me that I should be
quarantining all of the fish, even the ones from her for a minimum of 3
weeks, if I don't want it to break out again.

She also pointed out that none of the sale tanks had any substrate in them
because she has had a store wide Flex outbreak - I'd never considered that
was why

I guess, I could personally say that all this carry on about tank
maintinence is actually for a reason, and a very good reason. I also can't
stress enough to people now, that an appropriate gravel cleaner is
imperative for each tank you have.

You live and learn


Good Luck and best wishes

Thanks so much.

I hope the worst is now over and I can get on with a more balanced tank. I'm
sure more aware now of possible problems which can occur if certain
conditions are presented.

Regards,

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

Ozdude wrote:


I am shocked at how filthy my gravel was and I can't begin to stress
how
important it is you get a really good gravel cleaner that suits your
tank. I
was using a cleaner suitable for a small tank and when I bought the
new 22"
one I'd say it sucked up 400% more junk on it's first use that the
little
one just wasn't able to pull up out of the substrate.


If this is true, don't you think people who use soil or even mammal
dung in their tank substrate would have massive water quality problems?
A large portion of the planted tank keepers do no deep gravel vac'ing
at all.

steve

"steve" wrote in message
oups.com...

Ozdude wrote:


I am shocked at how filthy my gravel was and I can't begin to stress
how
important it is you get a really good gravel cleaner that suits your
tank. I
was using a cleaner suitable for a small tank and when I bought the
new 22"
one I'd say it sucked up 400% more junk on it's first use that the
little
one just wasn't able to pull up out of the substrate.


If this is true, don't you think people who use soil or even mammal
dung in their tank substrate would have massive water quality problems?
A large portion of the planted tank keepers do no deep gravel vac'ing
at all.

steve

Steve,; points taken. I never said I did a deep gravel vaccing. I haven't -
perhaps 0.5cm is the deepest I've gone. There was a lot of waste on and just
below the surface and it appears the bacteria took hold on it..

I don't advocate regular deep vaccing at all, never have, especially if you
have a planted tank.

Most of the advice sites I've read about substrates give warnings about soil
mixtures, dung and peat under/in substrates and there are many beautiful
planted tanks around using these types of substrates. It's almost definitely
a ymmv area.

I have lots of plants myself but I am of the opinion that if you have a good
working substrate (aerobic and good CEC) then the less disturbed it is the
better.

I've also seen tanks with Val. planted in sand and every time I've seen the
owners vacuum, they only do the surface mulm and detritus on the sand
surface - they never dig the siphon in - my point is actually you need a vac
with good suction so it can gently pick up most of the top surface mess,
where the bacteria have the most chance of getting a hold on the fish,
particularly bottom feeders.

All the best.

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

Ozdude wrote:
I've also seen tanks with Val. planted in sand and every time I've seen the
owners vacuum, they only do the surface mulm and detritus on the sand
surface - they never dig the siphon in

The most I can do is shake the gravel vac above the sand substrate. This
causes turbulence which detaches the detritus matter from its resting
place and then goes straight up the tube. If I dig in I'll decapitate
some leaves.

Nikki

steve wrote:
Ozdude wrote:



I am shocked at how filthy my gravel was and I can't begin to stress

how

important it is you get a really good gravel cleaner that suits your

tank. I

was using a cleaner suitable for a small tank and when I bought the

new 22"

one I'd say it sucked up 400% more junk on it's first use that the

little

one just wasn't able to pull up out of the substrate.



If this is true, don't you think people who use soil or even mammal
dung in their tank substrate would have massive water quality problems?
A large portion of the planted tank keepers do no deep gravel vac'ing
at all.

I always found that using sand prevented any build-up of waste. Also,
with large gravel, fish food always makes its way in between the stones
before it's eaten. All my aquariums have a top layer of sand. One has a
bottom layer of Fluorite, a top layer of sand and then a light
sprinkling of pea gravel. There's really no point in vacuuming unless
there's an unsightly collection of fish poops. The drawback with sand is
that the muck will build up in the filter, if it's powerful enough to
draw it in.

Nikki

I successfully cure columnaris ("flex") woth Acriflavine. There are good
reasons to never use antibiotics in aquarium water. Acriflavine takes
about 3 weeks. The disease loevs heat so keep them cool as possible.

Bettas are realy prone to this disease.

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Oz, I think it's our Aussie climate. I have not added new fish for over
a year and about 6 weeks ago developed the same sort of symptoms you
describe and I also put it down to Columnaris.

My tanks temps have been regularly over 27 and for quite some time were
over 30. I gravel vacc twice a week without fail. I have read over and
over that Columnaris is nearly always present in a tank and something
triggers it to blow out. I reckon the heat is a trigger.

I'm hoping to have something sorted out for cooling by next summer
although I doubt it will be for the same fish as I'm losing one a week.

I've learned that:
* Melafix and Pimafix are expensive and can lower the pH of your tank
dramatically. It only slows down the problem, doesn't cure it.
* Malachite green seems only available with formalin which can cause
major damage to your good bacteria
* UV sterilization seems complicated if you don't have the right filter
to push the water through the device to start with.
* I can't find a dose rate for potassium permanganate
* A water cooling system seems also comlicated and untidy (I am a female
* We don't seem to have access to antibiotics formulated for fish here
in Oz and if you buy them from the vet, apart from expense, it will be
in a form for some other animal and may have additives unsuitable for
fish ie. an injectable form of the drug that has some liquid to "carry"
the drug.

If you come up with any answers PLEASE tell me.

Good Luck!
miskairal

Ozdude wrote:
Oh dear,

Following on from the Sad Day thread:

I lost two of my SAE's and two more Neon Tetras suddenly this evening, just
when I thought everything was okay.

I didn't understand why after changing the water two days in a row (100%
changed in two days) and getting my chemistry right and back to stable
levels, why my fish were still passing away.

Some of you may remember I posted a while back about a Serpae Tetra female
that had what appeared to be an eaten away lower jaw due to "fungus"? (read
on because it's a major sign of what I now suspect is happening)

Well all of the Neons that have passed away have had this white-ish band
across their head from gill to gill.

The band appears seemingly over night, then they gasp at the surface, become
disorientated and then die. My SAE's that passed tonight had darker bands
from gill to gill and one of them was being chased literally to death by a
rampant Hockey Stick Tetra who just wouldn't leave it alone.

Considering that several factors have occurred of late in my tank, such as
high temperature (30 C), dirty substrate (only discovered this two days ago
and have vacuumed it clean each day since), low dissolved oxygen (a fairly
rapid raise in hardness and CO2 combined with the high temperature), stress
(trying to catch 5 BATs and disturbing one and all in the process - also
there has been some inter-species, and in-species (being bothered by mates)
spats) and a pretty big fluctuation in water quality, and slight over
feeding it seems, over the last 3 weeks or so;

I have come to the conclusion that what is now really killing my fish of
could very well be *Columnaris flexibacter*.

All the conditions have been there for it to develop and some of the dead
fish have shown mild external symptoms of it (the bands on the heads, the
dissolved lower jaw of the Serpae, and in the case of the bigger of the
SAE's that died - rapid respiration, lethargy and a complete change in
behavior several hours before and leading up to death).

The two Swords that died a few days ago showed no symptoms what-so-ever -
they just died very quickly, and they were both young and visibly very
healthy.

As Columnaris is gram-negative and contagious in warm de-oxygenated water, I
can state that I am *very worried* it's going to wipe the entire fish
population in my tank out.

The treatment I believe, and I need the more experienced people in the
groups to help me out here with this, is to lower the water temperature,
oxygenate, siphon gravel daily (it reportedly can grow on excess food and
waste on the gravel), change water daily and as a final resort dose with
Potassium Permanganate or Sulfur compounds? Does this sound right?

I have to act quickly on this or it's going to wipe the whole tank out, if
it is C.f..

I honestly can't see it being anything other than this because my water and
gravel are right on spec.

I am also guessing this is the price you pay too for not home quarantining
fish before they go into a tank? or are these bacteria always present in the
water column waiting for the right conditions?

If the worst happens and the entire population gets sick and dies, what is
the procedure for the tank itself?

Would you advise breaking the entire tank down, steralising everything
(especially filters and gravel), dosing the plants in Potassium
Permanganate/Bleach/H2O2 or something?

Oh boy, please help if you can - I think I am in big trouble and I'm about
to lose all of my fish

Many thanks in advance,

Oz

On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 09:02:21 +1000, miskairal
wrote:

Oz, I think it's our Aussie climate. I have not added new fish for over
a year and about 6 weeks ago developed the same sort of symptoms you
describe and I also put it down to Columnaris.

Excuse me for my ignorance if it shows but are your homes air
conditioned in Australia? In Canada, if the temp gets to 30C plus for
weeks on end most have air conditioners installed to keep it at
22-25C.

All the best,

Larry

"Larry" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 09:02:21 +1000, miskairal
wrote:

Oz, I think it's our Aussie climate. I have not added new fish for over
a year and about 6 weeks ago developed the same sort of symptoms you
describe and I also put it down to Columnaris.

Excuse me for my ignorance if it shows but are your homes air
conditioned in Australia? In Canada, if the temp gets to 30C plus for
weeks on end most have air conditioners installed to keep it at
22-25C.

No, not all. It's quite common in Queensland and the Northern Territory, for
instance to use large ceiling fans. I myself use a fan.

Air conditioning is causing our state power grids to struggle and is
actually a big issue at the moment as to energy use. Power isn't cheap in
this country and most people on lower incomes can't afford either the power
or the air-con in the first place.

Personally, heat doesn't bother me - I like it and you learn if you come
from the the driest inhabited state on the planet (South Australia) as I do,
how to cool a house using naural methods. It involves "farming" cool air
from the night and trapping it in the house - un-airconditioned homes are
ususally the ones on a 40C day with all the windows and blinds shut - to
keep the solar radiation out and keep the cool air farmed from the night in.

It all seems strange to those who have air conditioners to level out their
cooling and heating, and I have been chuckling a bit lately because of a
program they show on TV here called "A Place In ....." where English couples
go looking for houses in Europe somewhere - they always whinge on about
central heating or air conditioning and won't buy a place if it doesn't have
one or the other or both

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith

"Ozdude" wrote in message
...

"Larry" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 09:02:21 +1000, miskairal
wrote:

Oz, I think it's our Aussie climate. I have not added new fish for over
a year and about 6 weeks ago developed the same sort of symptoms you
describe and I also put it down to Columnaris.

Excuse me for my ignorance if it shows but are your homes air
conditioned in Australia? In Canada, if the temp gets to 30C plus for
weeks on end most have air conditioners installed to keep it at
22-25C.

No, not all. It's quite common in Queensland and the Northern Territory,
for
instance to use large ceiling fans. I myself use a fan.

Air conditioning is causing our state power grids to struggle and is
actually a big issue at the moment as to energy use. Power isn't cheap in
this country and most people on lower incomes can't afford either the
power
or the air-con in the first place.

Personally, heat doesn't bother me - I like it and you learn if you come
from the the driest inhabited state on the planet (South Australia) as I
do,
how to cool a house using naural methods. It involves "farming" cool air
from the night and trapping it in the house - un-airconditioned homes are
ususally the ones on a 40C day with all the windows and blinds shut - to
keep the solar radiation out and keep the cool air farmed from the night
in.

It all seems strange to those who have air conditioners to level out their
cooling and heating, and I have been chuckling a bit lately because of a
program they show on TV here called "A Place In ....." where English
couples
go looking for houses in Europe somewhere - they always whinge on about
central heating or air conditioning and won't buy a place if it doesn't
have
one or the other or both

Oz

--
My Aquatic web Blog is at http://members.optusnet.com.au/ivan.smith


Sorry I can't let this pass being English - lol

Having spent the last few weeks (coldest this winter) with no Central
Heating (boiler dead) some of us English are capable of controlling our
temps...I do a better job with the fish than the kids granted - OK in the
winter we usually use the CH but in the summer it's all blinds and fans -
bit worried it will get too hot for the fish though later in the year (this
will be our first full summer with them) - so watch this space when I ask
you guys on how to cool things down :-) ....might get tempted to buy an
AirCon unit but only for the fish of course....

So the English are now farming out their "more interesting" TV progs to you
guys...hey it might be revenge for Neighbours - lol
Gill