Red Growth

Biowheels create nitrates 24 hours a day. Dirty filter pads do as well. Plan on
rinsing them well every 3 or 4 days if you want to stay with that system.

My 29g doesn't have any type of filter pad, wheel, sock .. nothing. The water is
crystal clear and people are surprised by this. Particulates trapped in any type
of pad will rot as they break down and nitrates have nowhere to go but up.

http://www.melevsreef.com/reducing_nitrates.html

Marc


Phil O'Connor wrote:

My Emperor filter is not a canister, but a hang-on-back powerfilter with
biowheels. Admittedly, I dont change the filter pads often enough, and I'm sure
they become nitrate booms. Thats an area I can improve. And I will repopulate
the janitorial crew. Good suggestions.

But I'm confused about your remark that I dont have enough filtration to remove
nutrients. My biological filter (be it the biowheels, liverock, or both) is
sufficent enough to keep ammonia and nitrate to zero. That just leaves
denitrification. And all I can do there is water changes, which is very slow,
and cant elimiate nitrates altogether. I cant put in a DSB at this point. I
could scale up my liverock, but the liverock in my nano reef fails to denitrify
at all, so I'm skeptical that it would be successful in my big tank.

Or do you mean that, for instance, a janitorial crew is part of a 'filter' to
remove nutrients? That I can understand.

So at this point, my plan of attack is more frequent vaccuming/water changes (I
get lazy *blush*), more frequent filter pad replacement, scale up janitorial
crew.

Other than that, I dont believe I'm understanding your objections to my Emperor
filter. And do see any value in putting more live rock in? Like I say, I've
had no success getting liverock to denitrify in my other tank, so I dont know
how to ensure that will work.

Thanks again, I really appreciate the help.
Phil

CapFusion wrote:

I see couple thing I do not really like.
Crush Coral
Emperor Filter
Janitoral Crew

Other -
Food get trap in substrate which will decay - While being decay, it will
release nutrient.
No Janitoral crew to pick up any trash [sense of speaking] or scavaging

Double check your RO unit again with a TDS to see what the product water
rated at. Since you did not indicate any phospate so I am not to sure if RO
may contribute to it.

If I can remember from your previous post, you have like over 40ppm nitrate.
This will contribute food for algae.

I should have gave this link earlier but since Marc provide now.
Try this link -
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-12/nftt/index.htm
Try putting some Mexican Turbo snail and hopefully your Trigger will not
make a meal out of it. During that meantime, you will need to manual prume
and siphon out.

General speaking, I do not see your tank have much filter to remove excess
nutrient. But I do see as mechanical type filter due to your canister to
remove waste only and not really effecient enough. Your nitrate is your
obvious biggest problem. Canister / crush coral / decaying food are your
contributor. Your Protein Skimmer will not effeciently enough to remove it.
PS can not remove anything if it get stuck in your substrate until it
release and floating about in your current for it to remove it. That maybe
the reason why your subtrate and rock have algae.

CapFusion,...


--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

Marc,

So how do you maintain crystal clear water with no mechanical filtration?
During vaccuming and water changes, lots of particulates get kicked up,
and I cringe until my mechanical filter clears the water again.

What confuses me is, yes, biowheels create nitrates 24/7, but so does any
biological filter, no? Thats what its there for. And you need that. Or is
the issue that live rock performs more efficiently as a biofilter, and
produces fewer nitrates? Or are you saying biowheels sustain nitrate
production even when the cycle is not being fed with DOCs, whereas
liverock wont.

I like how you've converted a trickle filter into a sump. Actually, you
have me thinking very seriously about installing a sump/refugium, and
employing DSB and macroalgae for denitrification. I'm very nervous about
yanking my biowheels, since thats my established biofilter. I may
consider slowly ramping up the liverock until thats active, and then
axing the biowheels. Do I need strong lighting to use liverock as my
primary biofilter? I have only 30w now.

In anycase, that will be a slow migration. Meantime, I think I'd like to
take on a sump and get denitrification happening.

Thanks,
Phil


Marc Levenson wrote in
:

Biowheels create nitrates 24 hours a day. Dirty filter pads do as
well. Plan on rinsing them well every 3 or 4 days if you want to stay
with that system.

My 29g doesn't have any type of filter pad, wheel, sock .. nothing.
The water is crystal clear and people are surprised by this.
Particulates trapped in any type of pad will rot as they break down
and nitrates have nowhere to go but up.

http://www.melevsreef.com/reducing_nitrates.html

Marc

Hi Phil,

The water remains crystal clear as long as I keep my hands out of the tank. The
oils on my skin affect water tension, as does a water change or new top off
water, as does feeding the tank.

The stuff that blows around in the tank ends up being food for something, so I
have no reason to trap and remove it. All that is in there I put there,
including daily food. The clean up crew, the microfauna and the livestock help
eat up what is edible (on some level).

During a water change and/or siphoning of the gravel, the water will get dirty,
but it clears up within an hour or two. If you have corals, that is typically
the time they'll feed on the floating detritus. Some guys on ReefCentral.com
even intentionally blow all the stuff that landed in the sump, getting it back
into the water so their livestock can have another chance and consuming it. The
skimmer will pull out what is in the water as well.

The biological filter can only deal with a specific amount of pollutants, and
once they get too high LR & LS can't keep up. By getting those levels down,
success is attainable.

I did convert a trickle filter into a sump, and used it for about 6 weeks until
I built a brand new sump that had room and volume. It makes caring for my 55g a
real breeze.

LR doesn't depend on lighting, that I'm aware of. I do believe a DSB does,
because I've seen bubbles formed on the substrate during the day time (nitrates
coverted to nitrogen gas bubbles) which rise and pop. I've never noticed this
occuring during lights out.

You can make the conversion slowly. As soon as you have the sump and refugium
in place, that would be the perfect time to pull out the biowheels. You can put
additional LR in the sump if you don't want it in the display tank.

Marc


Phil wrote:

Marc,

So how do you maintain crystal clear water with no mechanical filtration?
During vaccuming and water changes, lots of particulates get kicked up,
and I cringe until my mechanical filter clears the water again.

What confuses me is, yes, biowheels create nitrates 24/7, but so does any
biological filter, no? Thats what its there for. And you need that. Or is
the issue that live rock performs more efficiently as a biofilter, and
produces fewer nitrates? Or are you saying biowheels sustain nitrate
production even when the cycle is not being fed with DOCs, whereas
liverock wont.

I like how you've converted a trickle filter into a sump. Actually, you
have me thinking very seriously about installing a sump/refugium, and
employing DSB and macroalgae for denitrification. I'm very nervous about
yanking my biowheels, since thats my established biofilter. I may
consider slowly ramping up the liverock until thats active, and then
axing the biowheels. Do I need strong lighting to use liverock as my
primary biofilter? I have only 30w now.

In anycase, that will be a slow migration. Meantime, I think I'd like to
take on a sump and get denitrification happening.

Thanks,
Phil

Marc Levenson wrote in
:

Biowheels create nitrates 24 hours a day. Dirty filter pads do as
well. Plan on rinsing them well every 3 or 4 days if you want to stay
with that system.

My 29g doesn't have any type of filter pad, wheel, sock .. nothing.
The water is crystal clear and people are surprised by this.
Particulates trapped in any type of pad will rot as they break down
and nitrates have nowhere to go but up.

http://www.melevsreef.com/reducing_nitrates.html

Marc




--
Personal Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/oanda/index.html
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com

What confuses me is, yes, biowheels create nitrates 24/7, but so does any
biological filter, no? Thats what its there for. And you need that. Or is
the issue that live rock performs more efficiently as a biofilter, and
produces fewer nitrates? Or are you saying biowheels sustain nitrate
production even when the cycle is not being fed with DOCs, whereas
liverock wont.



Bio-wheels, bio-balls, canisters, etc. are great at convertin the Amonnia to
nitrite and nitrites to nitrates, but due to the areobic bacteria that is
growing on the media. To convert the nitrates to a harmless gas you need anoxic
(low oxygen ) zones for anaerobic bacteria to colonize. These bacteria
(anaerobic) colonize in deep sand beds and deep within the live rock. Running
filrtermedia (bio-wheels) and liverock/DSB just causes compitition within the 2
types of bacteria, and none of them get up to their full potential of doing
what they are meant to do.
Rod Buehler
www.asplashoflife.com

(Rod) wrote in
:

Bio-wheels, bio-balls, canisters, etc. are great at convertin the
Amonnia to nitrite and nitrites to nitrates, but due to the areobic
bacteria that is growing on the media. To convert the nitrates to a
harmless gas you need anoxic (low oxygen ) zones for anaerobic
bacteria to colonize. These bacteria (anaerobic) colonize in deep sand
beds and deep within the live rock.

I'm with you so far....

Running filrtermedia (bio-wheels)
and liverock/DSB just causes compitition within the 2
types of bacteria, and none of them get up to their full potential of
doing
what they are meant to do.

Here I'm lost again. I dont understand how they are in competition with
each other when they feed on different things. The aerobic bacteria feeds
on ammonia and nitrite,and the anaerobic bacteria fees on nitrates, so
wheres the competition? Or are there other components that they have in
common? And even if so, why would that competition not also be the case
with the different types of bacteria on LR alone?

According to Marc's post, LR is a more suitable medium for aerobic
bacteria than filtermedia, apparently due to nitrate production. This is
what I'm not clear on why.

Hope I dont appear argumentative (I've been mistaken as such before) I
just get frustrated when I dont understand :-)

Thanks for bearing with me.
Phil

"Phil" wrote in message
. ..
Marc,

[snip]
So how do you maintain crystal clear water with no mechanical filtration?
During vaccuming and water changes, lots of particulates get kicked up,
and I cringe until my mechanical filter clears the water again.

[/snip]
Mechnanical filter can do so much. You can inspect how your filter work.
Next time you stir up those pollutant, not all get suck up by your filter
but settle down on your substrate or whatever it land on - especially the
heavy or big one. BUT what if you have a natural filteration that will
remove those land on your substrate and rock. There will be too many
decaying thing laying around and less nutrient to be release. Think about
it. I believe you using "Fresh Water" method on how to clean / filter your
Fresh Water Tank.

[snip]
What confuses me is, yes, biowheels create nitrates 24/7, but so does any
biological filter, no? Thats what its there for. And you need that. Or is
the issue that live rock performs more efficiently as a biofilter, and
produces fewer nitrates? Or are you saying biowheels sustain nitrate
production even when the cycle is not being fed with DOCs, whereas
liverock wont.
[/snip]
BiosFIlter job is to trap prolllutant or particle that can be stuck in those
coarse hole. That the reason biosfilter is 24/7 nitrate factory. Bacterial
convert to nitrate but nothing will convert to nitrogen gas to be less toxic
and be release. It will stay there until you either remove it or it get
decay and release itself.

Your whole Marine tank is consider a filter. You need everyone including
bacteria to do their part.

[snip]
I like how you've converted a trickle filter into a sump. Actually, you
have me thinking very seriously about installing a sump/refugium, and
employing DSB and macroalgae for denitrification. I'm very nervous about
yanking my biowheels, since thats my established biofilter. I may
consider slowly ramping up the liverock until thats active, and then
axing the biowheels. Do I need strong lighting to use liverock as my
primary biofilter? I have only 30w now.

[/snip]
Remove the Bio-ball or media where it house very effecient bacteria where it
live and convert to nitrate.
You will need to slowly convert from trickle to DSB sump or Refugium. Normal
light will be ok for macro algae.

CapFusion,...

Maybe the word "competition" maybe not the word to use. Those bacteria that
convert to nitrate IS much more effecient depending where they live. In
trickle sump type, they live in open air where water pass-through but in
submerge like in a gravel / crush coral it will not that effecient but
enough that ananerobic bacteria from DSB can not catch up. Maybe this
general idea will help.

CapFusion,...


"Phil" wrote in message
. ..
(Rod) wrote in
:

Bio-wheels, bio-balls, canisters, etc. are great at convertin the
Amonnia to nitrite and nitrites to nitrates, but due to the areobic
bacteria that is growing on the media. To convert the nitrates to a
harmless gas you need anoxic (low oxygen ) zones for anaerobic
bacteria to colonize. These bacteria (anaerobic) colonize in deep sand
beds and deep within the live rock.

I'm with you so far....

Running filrtermedia (bio-wheels)
and liverock/DSB just causes compitition within the 2
types of bacteria, and none of them get up to their full potential of
doing
what they are meant to do.

Here I'm lost again. I dont understand how they are in competition with
each other when they feed on different things. The aerobic bacteria feeds
on ammonia and nitrite,and the anaerobic bacteria fees on nitrates, so
wheres the competition? Or are there other components that they have in
common? And even if so, why would that competition not also be the case
with the different types of bacteria on LR alone?

According to Marc's post, LR is a more suitable medium for aerobic
bacteria than filtermedia, apparently due to nitrate production. This is
what I'm not clear on why.

Hope I dont appear argumentative (I've been mistaken as such before) I
just get frustrated when I dont understand :-)

Thanks for bearing with me.
Phil

CapFusion wrote:

Maybe the word "competition" maybe not the word to use. Those bacteria that
convert to nitrate IS much more effecient depending where they live. In
trickle sump type, they live in open air where water pass-through but in
submerge like in a gravel / crush coral it will not that effecient but
enough that ananerobic bacteria from DSB can not catch up. Maybe this
general idea will help.

CapFusion,...



Maybe I'm misunderstanding what 'efficient' means. Is efficient BAD? (meaning
higher nitrate production per DOC input) I guess that makes sense.
Therefore, filter media, being more efficient, is undesirable. Do I have that
right?

Phil (still me, just posting from my work)

CapFusion wrote:

"
[/snip]
Mechnanical filter can do so much. You can inspect how your filter work.
Next time you stir up those pollutant, not all get suck up by your filter
but settle down on your substrate or whatever it land on - especially the
heavy or big one. BUT what if you have a natural filteration that will
remove those land on your substrate and rock. There will be too many
decaying thing laying around and less nutrient to be release. Think about
it. I believe you using "Fresh Water" method on how to clean / filter your
Fresh Water Tank.

But everything I see in marine tank instruction and/or sales always includes
all three filters: mechnical, chemical, bio. Although I can understand how
some may adopt an alternate philosophy do to away with mechanical (as explained
here), its not actually considered 'wrong' for marine tanks, is it? Its still
the conventional wisdom for marine, no?

And we havent even talked about chemical. I see Marc has done away with that
too. Whats the theory behind that? Chemical is just for odor elimination, isnt
it? So there's no danger without it, just smells. So, Marc, are you living
with tank odors, or does your system handle that naturally too?




Remove the Bio-ball or media where it house very effecient bacteria where it
live and convert to nitrate.
You will need to slowly convert from trickle to DSB sump or Refugium. Normal
light will be ok for macro algae.

Does DSB house ALL types of necessary bacteria? So it can stand alone as
biofilter? Or is LR needed with it?

I gotta say, I've been at this over 2 years now, and research constantly, but
every now and then, I get input that reduces me back to feeling like I know
nothing :-)

"Phil O'Connor" wrote in message
...

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what 'efficient' means. Is efficient BAD?
(meaning
higher nitrate production per DOC input) I guess that makes sense.
Therefore, filter media, being more efficient, is undesirable. Do I have
that
right?

Phil (still me, just posting from my work)

I guess you can put it like that.

CapFusion,...