Neon tetras dropping like flies

Ali Day wrote:
"Gill Passman" wrote in message
...

An additional stress would be refilling the tank (for me) - hosepipe ban
as of next Monday and I'm not sure how I would cope with filling it back
up again with buckets....

I wouldn't worry about it Gill, you have the same sized tank as I do, 20% a
week 120L that's not even a good bath full. Big brother might be watching
but he's not into counting how many baths you have a week

Hope you get yer Neon problem sorted. I avoid Neon's now and have 18
cardinals which seem to be helluva alot sturdier.

I've always found cardinals sturdier too, once they're used to the tank.
I do tend to take more early losses with the cardinals.

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Gill Passman wrote:

Just been to the LFS and asked his opinion. Turned into a bit of a
training session for two new guys that have started - anyway they
diagnosed NTD. We then got out the Manager's file containing some
project work he did some time ago on fish disease...he had some photos -
and at least one matched (fortunately one of the less gruesome)- mine
don't lose their colour but just get these blister things - I haven't
seen one burst but I guess this is what causes the secondary infections
and fungus. He doesn't reckon that Melafix or Pimafix will help but that
there is a remote chance Protozin would (it claims to treat NTD on the
box) but wasn't too optimistic....he suggested giving it a try along
with some salt...but his opinion was very much the same as I have read
that once it has infested the fish they are doomed (unless they develop
an immunity). I am worried about the shrimps though (although he claims
to have used it in tanks with shrimps to no ill effect and reckons it is
WaterLife covering themselves). I'm not convinced - if they've lasted 48
hours since the last death and bearing in mind the rapid decline of the
others I'm inclined to go the clean water/gravel vac route - and maybe
the salt...

He didn't think the other fish would be at too much risk - he has seen
NTD in Neons, Danios and Black Widow Tetras but that is all....this
seems to be born out by other people's experiences (tetra type fish
although the Danio was a suprise)...his suggestion is to not add any
tetras for around 6 months after the last death...as for adding other
fish he agreed none until the deaths have stopped...

The whole point of that paper was that neons with NTD look externally
like fish with muscle Flavobacterium infections. The only difference
was the lack of spinal deformities in the Flavobacterium infected fish.
There is no way to tell for sure without actually examining the muscle
tissue of an affected fish under a microscope.

Don't bother trying to treat NTD. It not treatable other than by gravel
vaccing. Protozin will not help - aquarists have tried formalin to no
avail for many years.

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Gill Passman wrote:

I've got Protozin in my cupboard of tricks under one of the tanks...it
was what my LFS also suggested. I have no issues trying it as long as I
can be sure it won't hurt the shrimps....not come across TriCepic cream
and can't get a hit on it on google...

Agreed that there is something wrong with number five....

Gill

This sounds harsh, but euthanize him as soon as he's weak enought to
catch. You suspect NTD and it primarily spreads to fish who pick at an
infected corpse. Flavobacterium can also spread to healthy fish eating
a corpse, and velvet parasites rapidly flee corpses looking for another
host. There is never a good reason to leave a dying fish in a tank.

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Gill, You've mentioned this hosepipe ban before. After unsuccessfully
trying to come up with a reason for it I must ask. What's the purpose
of the ban? How serious are the consequenses?

We have water restrictions from time to time in the summer months where
we can only water our lawns every third day. I've never heard of a
violation as people are usually conscientious about conservation here
anyway. And we're -encouraged- to wash our cars less, or use a
commercial business because those are more enviro-friendly.

BTW My girlfriend is Scotish so I've previously heard the term
"hosepipe." That one is good, but my favorite is her pronunciation of
controversy. kahn-TROV-ersy.

giggle,

steve


Gill Passman wrote:
An additional stress would be refilling the tank (for me) - hosepipe ban
as of next Monday and I'm not sure how I would cope with filling it back
up again with buckets....

Gill

"Mister Gardener" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 21:22:37 -0600, "Koi-Lo"
wrote:


"Mr. Gardener" wrote in message
. ..
If I had anywhere near the amount of gallons that you have, I would
purchase my Melafix in the higher concentrated and less costly Pond
preparation. In fact, the next time I have to buy any, hopefully
never, I will probably get the concentrated stuff. Maybe I'll inquire
if the stuff stores well over a long period of time.
====================
To save $$$ and product you can also drain down a tank and use a drop-in
sponge filter or bubble-up box filter.

I would be concerned that that would add stress at a time when I am
trying to relieve stress.
======================
Why would it add stress? Draining down a tank slowly shouldn't stress the
fish.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

"Gill Passman" wrote in message
...
.....he suggested giving it a try along
with some salt...but his opinion was very much the same as I have read
that once it has infested the fish they are doomed (unless they develop an
immunity)

In which case you can have a Typhoid Mary in your tank. I hate to sound
negative Gill, but ... "been there - had that happen twice." They become
asymptomatic carriers.

....as for adding other
fish he agreed none until the deaths have stopped...

That is good advice.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

default wrote:
Gill, You've mentioned this hosepipe ban before. After unsuccessfully
trying to come up with a reason for it I must ask. What's the purpose
of the ban? How serious are the consequenses?

We have water restrictions from time to time in the summer months where
we can only water our lawns every third day. I've never heard of a
violation as people are usually conscientious about conservation here
anyway. And we're -encouraged- to wash our cars less, or use a
commercial business because those are more enviro-friendly.

BTW My girlfriend is Scotish so I've previously heard the term
"hosepipe." That one is good, but my favorite is her pronunciation of
controversy. kahn-TROV-ersy.

giggle,

steve


Gill Passman wrote:

An additional stress would be refilling the tank (for me) - hosepipe ban
as of next Monday and I'm not sure how I would cope with filling it back
up again with buckets....

Gill



A hosepipe/sprinkler ban is the first step the water companies make in
conserving water supplies in times of shortage.

Hard to believe, I know, but we have had below average rainfall over the
last two winters and last summer. Although the reservoirs are full the
water tables are getting dangerously low. Couple that with the fact that
the infra-structure is old and breaking down - it has been reported that
one third of all water supplied in my area is lost through damaged pipes.

The first step the water companies take is to ban the use of hosepipes
and sprinklers. They also put out advisories on ways of conserving water
- eg. bath instead of shower, recycle water (eg. use water from the
washing up bowl to flush the toilet - that sort of thing). This is the
earliest I can remember these measures being put in place.

Some areas have now through act of parliament got permission to enforce
water metering on all homes. Now I know that most places have this in
place but in the UK historically we paid for our water by something
called Water Rates. This is a set annual charge based on the value of
your property. Newer build houses/flats have water meters as standard
now but there are those of us who still pay via the old rating system.
Living in a household of 2 adults, 3 children and currently 8 fish
tanks, plus a keen interest in gardening we have opted to keep to the
old system. Of course, charging people for what they actually use is
quite an efficient way of rationing providing those in question can
actually afford the charges.

As the season continues, if we still have below average rainfall further
measures are put in place including the restriction of commercial
companies using water to wash buildings/windows and vehicles. The final
stage is to make people get their water from standpipes in the street -
the last time this happened was in 1976 for a short period of time.

Hope this explains all...

Gill

Altum wrote:
Gill Passman wrote:

I've got Protozin in my cupboard of tricks under one of the tanks...it
was what my LFS also suggested. I have no issues trying it as long as
I can be sure it won't hurt the shrimps....not come across TriCepic
cream and can't get a hit on it on google...

Agreed that there is something wrong with number five....

Gill


This sounds harsh, but euthanize him as soon as he's weak enought to
catch. You suspect NTD and it primarily spreads to fish who pick at an
infected corpse. Flavobacterium can also spread to healthy fish eating
a corpse, and velvet parasites rapidly flee corpses looking for another
host. There is never a good reason to leave a dying fish in a tank.



He is now back swimming with the others quite happily again...I wouldn't
know which one he is. The guy in the LFS suggested euthanizing the whole
batch as an option but not one that he would recommend (in his words
slightly one above letting nature take it's course) - his feeling is
that we have a responsibility to do the best to try and treat the fish -
just wish I knew what darned treatment to give them (grrr) - I do
actually agree with him. While this fish is coming out from time to time
and swimming normally with no marks I can't quite bring myself to hasten
his demise - plus I can't tell him apart from the others. If he starts
showing swimming problems he should be easy to net and deal with...

In retrospect I've never had much success with Neons but have never
observed anything quite like this. The 4 foot tank has housed a number
of Neons that have disappeared or died - it now has just two left and
I'm not planning on adding any more....none of the other fish have
suffered as far as I can tell....

I agree with you on not leaving dying fish in a tank. Equally sometimes
it is nigh on impossible to find them (or corpses) in a heavily planted
tank until it is too late and parts of them (if not all) have been
chomped....generally I net them and either put them somewhere quiet to
recover or die or in some cases euthanize them if there is absolutely no
hope...

Gill

"Koi-Lo" wrote in message
...

"NetMax" wrote in message
.. .
"Koi-Lo" wrote in message
........slow fancy Goldfish that are soooooo easy to catch, even by
hand. wicked grin here
--
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

I've caught & moved many fish by hand. Sometimes I would net them and
hold the net horizontal underwater (with the frame out). I would by-hand
flip them around, inspect them and if ok, cradle them in my palm to the
fish bag. My wet skin is far less abrasive than a net, reducing the
incidence of Ich, by preserving their slime coat.
--
www.NetMax.tk
===================================
My problem is dropping them when they start to struggle. Fish are so
slimy. I'm paranoid about handling the water-bubble-eye goldfish. I was
told they can break the bubbles whether hand or net caught,.... and I'll
soon have several I have to move into the larger tank. I think I'll try
and scoot them into a bowl and move them water and all.

What is the best and safest way to move these goldfish?
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o


Submerge a milk or juice container into the tank, coral the fish into it,
lift container at 45 degree angle and move to new location.
--
www.NetMax.tk

"Koi-Lo" wrote in message
...

"netDenizen" wrote in message
.. .
Koi-Lo wrote:

=====================
I hope once this problem is past you can set aside at least one tank for
a quarantine tank and NEVER put new fish in your big tank without at
least 14 days in quarantine. For extra protection, Q them for 21 days.
Even a 10g tank off in a corner somewhere would work. Should you get
some kind of disease in that large tank it's going to be a nightmare to
sterilize everything.

My newsreader may have missed a post or two but as I understand it these
neon's were new fish you recently purchased. I don't remember you
mentioning you Q'd them.

That's telling them!

Gill's aquarium was new, iirc. Therefore it was a quarantine tank for the
few fish she started with.
===========================
In that case if any disease infects the MAIN tank then no more fish can be
added until the problem is solved and cured. This can be quite a job with
a large tank and treatment can be very expensive. It's a lot cheaper to
treat a 10g than a 55 or a 130g tank. You can also catch a fish easily in
a 10g for a scraping or individual care - not so in these larger tanks.
It can also take some time to solve the mystery making the large take
itself quarantined.

In North America, treating large tanks for Ich is cheap, and there are pond
meds which make other treatments economical for only a 130g tank. The most
cost prohibitive medication is antibiotics, which they don't have available
in the UK anyways. Just playing devil's advocate because conditions can
really vary by country.
--
www.NetMax.tk

When I set up my two 55gs last October (they had been in storage for 2 or
3 years) I quarantined everything in two old 10g tanks before they went
into the 55s. All were treated with Quick-Cure just-in-case. Fortunately
all appeared healthy so Q only lasted 14 days for them.

But it's whatever works for the individual and their set-ups.......
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o