Tropical fish campaign

For your interested, Advocates for Animals (Scotland, UK) are
launching a campaign called GLASS PRISONS, EMPTY LIVES about the
problems of keeping tropical fish. You can see it at:

http://www.advocatesforanimals.org/g...assprisons.htm

Also, few days ago they launched one about exotic pets:

http://www.advocatesforanimals.org/exotics

They have both being launched in anticipation of the possible buying
frenzy this Christmas of exotic pets/fish as a consequence of the
popularity of 'Finding Nemo' and the 'Teenager Ninja Turtles' films.


Jordi

"Jordi Casamitjana" wrote in message
om...
For your interested, Advocates for Animals (Scotland, UK) are
launching a campaign called GLASS PRISONS, EMPTY LIVES about the
problems of keeping tropical fish. You can see it at:

http://www.advocatesforanimals.org/g...assprisons.htm

Interesting article. Although, personally, I wouldn't go as far as calling
my fish "sentient"...

One thing that repeatedly comes up in the article is how the fish can
"see its reflection in the tank's front glass." That appears to be impossible
to me: the fish look right through the glass from the inside, just as we
look right through the glass from the outside. Any reflection would be
very faint and almost invisible because, at an angle of close to 90 degrees,
glass reflects very little light.

Some bias there too. For example:

"If we add fish taken for the food industry, then 90% of each of the world's
large
ocean species, including cod, halibut, tuna, swordfish and marlin, have
disappeared from the world's oceans in recent decades, according
to the Canadian analysis. (5)"

While this may be true, I don't see what it has to do with keeping
aquarium fish, given that none of the mentioned species are kept
in aquariums. So the point is thrown in for its alarmist value and,
on casual reading, it is likely that many people will not notice its
irrelevance.

I do feel sorry for the thousands of poor bettas though. Being forced
to hang motionless in a few cubic inches of water is cruelty in my book.
(And having kept bettas before, I know that they like to swim around
a lot if they have the room to do so...)

And I have no doubt that Finding Nemo will contribute toward a larger
than usual share of aquarium fish dying in the few weeks after christmas
(which, incidentally, seems to be the time with the highest death rate for
any kind of pet...)

Cheers,

Michi.

--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com

Interesting article. Although, personally, I wouldn't go as far as calling
my fish "sentient"...

How would you define "sentient". Do not you think that fish have
senses and brain?


One thing that repeatedly comes up in the article is how the fish can
"see its reflection in the tank's front glass." That appears to be impossible
to me: the fish look right through the glass from the inside, just as we
look right through the glass from the outside. Any reflection would be
very faint and almost invisible because, at an angle of close to 90 degrees,
glass reflects very little light.


The ability to see areflection from inside a tank depends on two
things: to have eyes with a brain to interpret images, and that there
is more light inside the tank than outside the tank. Both occurrences
are common in the case of fish and aquaria.

If you can see the reflection of the fish in the tank walls, then the
chances are the fish can also see it.


Regarding you 90 degrees explanation, you seem to live in a different
universe than mine (forgive me the sarcastic tone). In my universe, I
only can see my reflection in a mirrow if it is placed at 90 degrees
from my eyesight.

It is different when you a trying to see your own reflection through a
galss that has a light in the other side shining towards you. If you
then move away from the light you will see more reflections in the
glass, but not yours.

In the case of fish, because in most occasions the light inside the
tank is more intense than the one outside, reflectiins inside will
occur. But when you turn the tank lights off, then the reflection
ceases.


I do feel sorry for the thousands of poor bettas though. Being forced
to hang motionless in a few cubic inches of water is cruelty in my book.
(And having kept bettas before, I know that they like to swim around
a lot if they have the room to do so...)


I agree with you there.

I suppose i best sell my glass aquariums and purchase larger rubbermaid
containers... Just so the fish can not see thier refelctions... Actually I
have had fish that seemingly enjoyed thier own reflections, tinfoil barbs
are rather vain ...

Tim..


"Jordi Casamitjana" wrote in message
om...
Interesting article. Although, personally, I wouldn't go as far as
calling
my fish "sentient"...

How would you define "sentient". Do not you think that fish have
senses and brain?


One thing that repeatedly comes up in the article is how the fish can
"see its reflection in the tank's front glass." That appears to be
impossible
to me: the fish look right through the glass from the inside, just as we
look right through the glass from the outside. Any reflection would be
very faint and almost invisible because, at an angle of close to 90
degrees,
glass reflects very little light.


The ability to see areflection from inside a tank depends on two
things: to have eyes with a brain to interpret images, and that there
is more light inside the tank than outside the tank. Both occurrences
are common in the case of fish and aquaria.

If you can see the reflection of the fish in the tank walls, then the
chances are the fish can also see it.


Regarding you 90 degrees explanation, you seem to live in a different
universe than mine (forgive me the sarcastic tone). In my universe, I
only can see my reflection in a mirrow if it is placed at 90 degrees
from my eyesight.

It is different when you a trying to see your own reflection through a
galss that has a light in the other side shining towards you. If you
then move away from the light you will see more reflections in the
glass, but not yours.

In the case of fish, because in most occasions the light inside the
tank is more intense than the one outside, reflectiins inside will
occur. But when you turn the tank lights off, then the reflection
ceases.


I do feel sorry for the thousands of poor bettas though. Being forced
to hang motionless in a few cubic inches of water is cruelty in my book.
(And having kept bettas before, I know that they like to swim around
a lot if they have the room to do so...)


I agree with you there.

Jordi Casamitjana wrote:

For your interested, Advocates for Animals (Scotland, UK) are
launching a campaign called GLASS PRISONS, EMPTY LIVES about the
problems of keeping tropical fish. You can see it at:

http://www.advocatesforanimals.org/g...assprisons.htm

Also, few days ago they launched one about exotic pets:

http://www.advocatesforanimals.org/exotics

They have both being launched in anticipation of the possible buying
frenzy this Christmas of exotic pets/fish as a consequence of the
popularity of 'Finding Nemo' and the 'Teenager Ninja Turtles' films.


Jordi

This group wants no tropical fish to be kept as pets or a hobby, They
are like PETA who does not want us to have ANY pets at all.

Kay

Why is it that people like this come along every so-often, spreading there
propaganda like a cancer, expecting everyone else out there to "Bow to
there Wishes" and comply with there deranged ideas and thoughts.
Could I suggest that you crawl back under your rock and stay there...
People are not interested in your crap,,, Many,Many people in this world,
only have an
animal as a companion or friend, and they have nothing else.
But I will be taking a very close look at your web sites, and if I can do
anything to disrupt, or stop your stupid deranged ideas, I will...


bassett


Jordi Casamitjana wrote:

For your interested, Advocates for Animals (Scotland, UK) are
launching a campaign called GLASS PRISONS, EMPTY LIVES about the
problems of keeping tropical fish. You can see it at:

http://www.advocatesforanimals.org/g...assprisons.htm

Also, few days ago they launched one about exotic pets:

http://www.advocatesforanimals.org/exotics

They have both being launched in anticipation of the possible buying
frenzy this Christmas of exotic pets/fish as a consequence of the
popularity of 'Finding Nemo' and the 'Teenager Ninja Turtles' films.


Jordi

Bassett wrote:
Why is it that people like this come along every so-often, spreading there
propaganda like a cancer, expecting everyone else out there to "Bow to
there Wishes" and comply with there deranged ideas and thoughts.
Could I suggest that you crawl back under your rock and stay there...
People are not interested in your crap,,, Many,Many people in this world,
only have an
animal as a companion or friend, and they have nothing else.
But I will be taking a very close look at your web sites, and if I can do
anything to disrupt, or stop your stupid deranged ideas, I will...


bassett



Plus to add to the insult this is posted in an aquaria newsgroups,
knowing it would disturb this and other aquaria groups.

Kay

You will also notice, that these people never answer a post, never account
for there propaganda, and also never answer an e-mail.
I might add, that I sent them a 500 odd word e-mail, asking where there
information comes from, Where they aware that everything complied with
CITES guidelines, etc.. Needless to say My e-mail went unanswered. No
surprises there..
I may be guilty of posting the links on this news group, But while I will
not apologies for my actions. I will say, that's its very handy to know what
these nut cases are up to. IF people don,t react, all sorts of legislation
get proposed
and passed, and before you know it, our hobby will not be ours much longer.
bassett
..
"Kay" wrote in message

Plus to add to the insult this is posted in an aquaria newsgroups,
knowing it would disturb this and other aquaria groups.

Kay


Bassett wrote:
Why is it that people like this come along every so-often, spreading
there
propaganda like a cancer, expecting everyone else out there to "Bow to
there Wishes" and comply with there deranged ideas and thoughts.
Could I suggest that you crawl back under your rock and stay there...
People are not interested in your crap,,, Many,Many people in this
world,
only have an
animal as a companion or friend, and they have nothing else.
But I will be taking a very close look at your web sites, and if I can
do
anything to disrupt, or stop your stupid deranged ideas, I will...


bassett