ph kh snails and clown loach

hello everyone,
i have a puzzle.

in my 15 gallon aquarium, which is about 3 years old, i have;
breeding pair ancistrus (5" long)and their offspring usually twenty
ish tiny ones which go to the lfs at about 1" long,
2 siamese alae eaters / siamese flying foxes (4" long),
2 upside down catfish (2" long),
7 harlequins (1" long),
2 neon tetras (1" long),
1 whiptail catfish (4" long)
1 pygmy puffer (1" long)
1 large amazon sword plant and an abundance of reedy plants which i
occasionally pull out to keep them under control.


I used to have 3 pygmy puffers, but about six months ago 2 of them
died in the night. I checked the water and found the ph at 6.2 and the
kh at 4 degrees.
I did a partial water change only to find that the ph and kh dropped
agian over the next few days.
Since then i have been doing 40% water changes every week to stop the
ph dropping to a dangerous level. I have done a fair bit of reading
about ph and kh, and i understand ( from a fish keepers point of view)
the relationship between them.
At about the same time as the ph kh dropping started i noticed snails
in the gravel, their numbers grew rapidly to a few hundred ( i guess)
and are now stable.

The only process i know of that will cause kh to drop and then the ph
to drop is the production of an acid, and i think the acid must be
nitric acid produced from the nitrates present in the water.
The puzzle is this.
Are the snails causing too much bio load on the system?
Am i over stocked?
Am i over feeding?
or is there another possible cause for this drop?

I feed once a day an hour or two before lights out; 1 very small pinch
of flake food, one eighth of a lump of frozen glassworm (really only
for the puffer, but they all eat it)one algae wafer and one carnivore
wafer (the wafers are sometimes substituted with courgette (zuchini)

Sorry to ramble on but i see so many posts where the information
needed is not provided.

tank parametes after a weekly waterchange: Ph 7. Kh 9. nitrates 90ppm.
nitrites 0.

just before a water change the nitrates and nitrites remain the same
but the kh has fallen to 4 and the ph is 6.2 - 6.8.

any help gratefully received

chris nuttall

I had a very similar situation a few years back. I could not keep my pH nor
my KH at any decent range dispite that my tanks were not even moderately
stocked or overfed. However, my live plants (mainly a large Amazon Sword
and a few Vals) would sprout like crazy after every water change and kept a
good growth pattern up. After some serious investigating, the best culprit
was biogenetic decalcification. Basically, what some plants do is strip the
water column of calcium buffers if they don't receive enough through their
normal processes. The result is a dropping KH and a low pH.

I solved this problem by adding a small amount of crushed coral to the
sunbstrate. Just dumped about a 1/4 cup in the tank and checked the KH and
pH levels. The plants may still remove the nutrients from the water column,
but the lower pH would disolve the crushed coral and there for replace the
buffers in the water. After a week of monitoring, if the 1/4 cup wasn't
enough, I added a little more. This way the water parameters are changed
slowly over time, just as the fish are used to, rather than shocking them
with a large change at once.

So far, I have not had any problems with KH or pH. I have had to
periodically add more crushed coral as time went by. Regular monitoring
will let you know when the last batch of coral is near it's end.

Justin

"chris nuttall" wrote in message
om...
hello everyone,
i have a puzzle.

in my 15 gallon aquarium, which is about 3 years old, i have;
breeding pair ancistrus (5" long)and their offspring usually twenty
ish tiny ones which go to the lfs at about 1" long,
2 siamese alae eaters / siamese flying foxes (4" long),
2 upside down catfish (2" long),
7 harlequins (1" long),
2 neon tetras (1" long),
1 whiptail catfish (4" long)
1 pygmy puffer (1" long)
1 large amazon sword plant and an abundance of reedy plants which i
occasionally pull out to keep them under control.


I used to have 3 pygmy puffers, but about six months ago 2 of them
died in the night. I checked the water and found the ph at 6.2 and the
kh at 4 degrees.
I did a partial water change only to find that the ph and kh dropped
agian over the next few days.
Since then i have been doing 40% water changes every week to stop the
ph dropping to a dangerous level. I have done a fair bit of reading
about ph and kh, and i understand ( from a fish keepers point of view)
the relationship between them.
At about the same time as the ph kh dropping started i noticed snails
in the gravel, their numbers grew rapidly to a few hundred ( i guess)
and are now stable.

The only process i know of that will cause kh to drop and then the ph
to drop is the production of an acid, and i think the acid must be
nitric acid produced from the nitrates present in the water.
The puzzle is this.
Are the snails causing too much bio load on the system?
Am i over stocked?
Am i over feeding?
or is there another possible cause for this drop?

I feed once a day an hour or two before lights out; 1 very small pinch
of flake food, one eighth of a lump of frozen glassworm (really only
for the puffer, but they all eat it)one algae wafer and one carnivore
wafer (the wafers are sometimes substituted with courgette (zuchini)

Sorry to ramble on but i see so many posts where the information
needed is not provided.

tank parametes after a weekly waterchange: Ph 7. Kh 9. nitrates 90ppm.
nitrites 0.

just before a water change the nitrates and nitrites remain the same
but the kh has fallen to 4 and the ph is 6.2 - 6.8.

any help gratefully received

chris nuttall

"chris nuttall" wrote in message
om...
hello everyone,
i have a puzzle.

in my 15 gallon aquarium, which is about 3 years old, i have;
breeding pair ancistrus (5" long)and their offspring usually twenty
ish tiny ones which go to the lfs at about 1" long,
2 siamese alae eaters / siamese flying foxes (4" long),
2 upside down catfish (2" long),
7 harlequins (1" long),
2 neon tetras (1" long),
1 whiptail catfish (4" long)
1 pygmy puffer (1" long)
1 large amazon sword plant and an abundance of reedy plants which i
occasionally pull out to keep them under control.


I'm a beginner, so I am curious about something. I am hearing about this
rule of thumb that says 1" of fish per gallon of water. From your list
above, I see 2x5+2x4+2*2+7+2+4+1=36 inches of fish. If the tails shouldn't
be included, lets say you have 32 inches of fish, and maybe 13 gallons of
water. Does this make sense? You seem to be getting by OK I suppose, so
how loose is this rule of thumb anyway?

dwhite

thanks for those posts, they are both helpful.
I did not think i was over stocked, i have tested the tap water after
a week and it is stable, i dont think i am over feeding.
Decalcification sounds like a good straw to cluch at, could the
process of the snails growing their shell and then getting removed
from the tank by me be using up calcium too?
I think i will try the coral - or at least read up on the subject!

chris

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 22:22:00 GMT, "Dan White"
wrote:


"chris nuttall" wrote in message
. com...
hello everyone,
i have a puzzle.

in my 15 gallon aquarium, which is about 3 years old, i have;
breeding pair ancistrus (5" long)and their offspring usually twenty
ish tiny ones which go to the lfs at about 1" long,
2 siamese alae eaters / siamese flying foxes (4" long),
2 upside down catfish (2" long),
7 harlequins (1" long),
2 neon tetras (1" long),
1 whiptail catfish (4" long)
1 pygmy puffer (1" long)
1 large amazon sword plant and an abundance of reedy plants which i
occasionally pull out to keep them under control.


I'm a beginner, so I am curious about something. I am hearing about this
rule of thumb that says 1" of fish per gallon of water. From your list
above, I see 2x5+2x4+2*2+7+2+4+1=36 inches of fish. If the tails shouldn't
be included, lets say you have 32 inches of fish, and maybe 13 gallons of
water. Does this make sense? You seem to be getting by OK I suppose, so
how loose is this rule of thumb anyway?

dwhite


Hi Dan,

I started collecting fish tanks two years ago next December. The
first was a 75 gallon tank. It now has 12 species and 74 fish ranging
from 4" Siamese Algae Eaters and Clown Loaches to young live bearers.
I use to worry that the SAEs and the CLs would be a problem, but their
growth has remained stable for about 6 months. Now I worry about all
the fry that survive and keep adding to the stock. Most get eaten,
but enough survive that they pose a problem.

I keep my 3 ten gallon tank populations within the one fish per
gallon, but my 29 gallon has 28 and many are way over one inch.

Knowing I have dense populations, I decided to go from 20% water
changes once a week to twice weekly. So far, so good. Perhaps having
heavy plant growth helps. I notice lots of the fish spend time out of
sight. Also, the fish utilize different levels of the tank.

I have had more problems in my 3 ten gallon tanks than in the more
heavily populated 75 and 29 gallon tanks.

I am no expert, but thought my observation and experiences might help
you.

dick

"Dick" wrote in message
...

Knowing I have dense populations, I decided to go from 20% water
changes once a week to twice weekly. So far, so good. Perhaps having
heavy plant growth helps. I notice lots of the fish spend time out of
sight. Also, the fish utilize different levels of the tank.

I have had more problems in my 3 ten gallon tanks than in the more
heavily populated 75 and 29 gallon tanks.

I am no expert, but thought my observation and experiences might help
you.


Yes, that is interesting. I have a question about these water changes. Is
there a way to change 20% without losing the prime to your circulating pump,
assuming you have one? My light/lid (55g) is an old one and it is a bit
cumbersome to remove the light and half of the cover in order to reprime the
tubes. I know it seems like a little thing, but the fewer steps necessary,
the more likely I am to actually change the water.

dwhite

dan

i do the water change one bucket at a time (one out, one in, then one
more out and another in etc...)
you do obviously end up taking out a little of the tapwater you just
added, but it does stop the level from dropping too low!

chris

"chris nuttall" wrote in message
m...
dan

i do the water change one bucket at a time (one out, one in, then one
more out and another in etc...)
you do obviously end up taking out a little of the tapwater you just
added, but it does stop the level from dropping too low!


Got it. I'll give that a thought. I guess you just make sure the temps are
the same, and that you've dechlorinated, and dump it in.

dwhite

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 04:34:14 GMT, "Dan White"
wrote:

"Dick" wrote in message
.. .

Knowing I have dense populations, I decided to go from 20% water
changes once a week to twice weekly. So far, so good. Perhaps having
heavy plant growth helps. I notice lots of the fish spend time out of
sight. Also, the fish utilize different levels of the tank.

I have had more problems in my 3 ten gallon tanks than in the more
heavily populated 75 and 29 gallon tanks.

I am no expert, but thought my observation and experiences might help
you.


Yes, that is interesting. I have a question about these water changes. Is
there a way to change 20% without losing the prime to your circulating pump,
assuming you have one? My light/lid (55g) is an old one and it is a bit
cumbersome to remove the light and half of the cover in order to reprime the
tubes. I know it seems like a little thing, but the fewer steps necessary,
the more likely I am to actually change the water.

dwhite

I dread losing the prime. I use a python and lower the water to a
safe level, then reverse the flow to refill the tank, then syphon
again and then the final refill. I estimate the total change at 20%.
I do this change twice weekly. I suppose the chlorine level differs
my one's local. My city water seems fine, the city adds minimum
chlorine.

dick

"Dick" wrote in message
...

I dread losing the prime. I use a python and lower the water to a
safe level, then reverse the flow to refill the tank, then syphon
again and then the final refill. I estimate the total change at 20%.
I do this change twice weekly. I suppose the chlorine level differs
my one's local. My city water seems fine, the city adds minimum
chlorine.


So you add the dechlorinator to the tank like someone else said (or maybe
that was you)?

dwhite