water areating from overflow into sump...

Hello all,
I've always enjoyed the look of live plants in my tanks and I have just
downsized to keeping only one tank. (school does that to you) So I've kept
my 240 gal with the overflow down into a sump. I'm using a Mag 18 to pump
the water back up from the sump into the display tank and figure I have
about 1100 gph total coming in from the two inlets.

My problem is that I think there's too much air/water mixing when the water
runs down through the plumbing into the sump and it's compromising my CO2
levels. The 4 live plants I do have in the tank ("tropical amazon" and 3
crypts) are still alive, but I don't feel that they're growing as should be
expected.

Does anyone else have an overflow system to a sump that they use? How did
you control the air/water mixing to prevent CO2 loss?

Thank you,
Justin

Here are two options.

Replace any bio-balls with blocks or course open cell foam. This will
reduce the gas exchange.

Change the chambers so they no longer have air spaces. In the skimmer
place two pipes, one that fits in the outlet with the top an inch below
the top of the skimmer. The second is a larger pipe that is the same
height or a little higher, cut some slits at the bottom of the pipe to
allow the water in. This forces the water down the skimmer then back up
to the higher outlet. You can do something similar in the tickle
portion of the sump although this generally requires modifications to
block where the water is designed to go into the sump. Or just remove
the tickle box and allow the water to go directly into the sump
(probably what I would do). If the skimmer is full of water and the
outlet is under water in the sump there should be no place for air to
get into the plumbing and it will eventually fill with water.

Four plants will not be enough to replace the biological filtration you
will lose, so plan on adding many more plants.

Thanks for your input.
I'm not worried about the biofiltration. I have a fluidized bed filter
running on bypass through the sump.
Currently, I have drilled standpipes in the skimmer box, I tried the open
pipe under the water level idea and got this huge sucking sound as the water
is gravity fed down into the sump.
I think the problem is that I can't get a closed siphon going in an open
sump system. Not enough water coming down the pipe means air and water
mixing and too much water being pumped up into the tank means overflow and
wet carpet.

Thanks,
Justin

"jet" wrote in message
oups.com...
Here are two options.

Replace any bio-balls with blocks or course open cell foam. This will
reduce the gas exchange.

Change the chambers so they no longer have air spaces. In the skimmer
place two pipes, one that fits in the outlet with the top an inch below
the top of the skimmer. The second is a larger pipe that is the same
height or a little higher, cut some slits at the bottom of the pipe to
allow the water in. This forces the water down the skimmer then back up
to the higher outlet. You can do something similar in the tickle
portion of the sump although this generally requires modifications to
block where the water is designed to go into the sump. Or just remove
the tickle box and allow the water to go directly into the sump
(probably what I would do). If the skimmer is full of water and the
outlet is under water in the sump there should be no place for air to
get into the plumbing and it will eventually fill with water.

Four plants will not be enough to replace the biological filtration you
will lose, so plan on adding many more plants.

"Justin Boucher" wrote in message
news:kz8pe.14829$U_2.9557@trnddc06...
Thanks for your input.
I'm not worried about the biofiltration. I have a fluidized bed filter
running on bypass through the sump.
Currently, I have drilled standpipes in the skimmer box, I tried the open
pipe under the water level idea and got this huge sucking sound as the
water
is gravity fed down into the sump.
I think the problem is that I can't get a closed siphon going in an open
sump system. Not enough water coming down the pipe means air and water
mixing and too much water being pumped up into the

Why not use an aquatic ball valve inline and get the right balance of water
being pumped back into the tank?

tank means overflow and
wet carpet.

Thanks,
Justin

"jet" wrote in message
oups.com...
Here are two options.

Replace any bio-balls with blocks or course open cell foam. This will
reduce the gas exchange.

Change the chambers so they no longer have air spaces. In the skimmer
place two pipes, one that fits in the outlet with the top an inch below
the top of the skimmer. The second is a larger pipe that is the same
height or a little higher, cut some slits at the bottom of the pipe to
allow the water in. This forces the water down the skimmer then back up
to the higher outlet. You can do something similar in the tickle
portion of the sump although this generally requires modifications to
block where the water is designed to go into the sump. Or just remove
the tickle box and allow the water to go directly into the sump
(probably what I would do). If the skimmer is full of water and the
outlet is under water in the sump there should be no place for air to
get into the plumbing and it will eventually fill with water.

Four plants will not be enough to replace the biological filtration you
will lose, so plan on adding many more plants.

Thinking about it I see why it would not work. 1100 gph is a lot to get
through stand pipes. I assume the tank is drilled with 3/4" ID
bulkheads. Reducing the flow would help some but it is hard on the pump
and if I recall the Mag doesn't handle high head pressure very well. It
may be the best you can do it minimize the turbulence and air contant
(no right angles, foam instead of bio-balls, stand pipe with 3/8" holes
drilled up the side, etc.).

This is the problem with sump systems. They were designed with marine
systems in mind where maximizing the O2 is desired and they did not
have to figure out how to move the water around without removing the
CO2.

Excellent point. This is Marine to Freshwater converstion since the tank
was designed with a marine system in mind. I am using 1" ID rigid PVC with
only 2 elbows. I already have the standpipes drilled and one of them is
set-up as a backup stand pipe (to help prevent tank overflow)

As for the Mag, references I got from the marine group support the Mag
pumps. They do have a special mentioning for head pressure however (which I
have figured in my calculations).

It seems that I'm stuck with at least a little air turbulence since this
system was originally designed for a Marine system.

Thank you,
Justin

"jet" wrote in message
oups.com...
Thinking about it I see why it would not work. 1100 gph is a lot to get
through stand pipes. I assume the tank is drilled with 3/4" ID
bulkheads. Reducing the flow would help some but it is hard on the pump
and if I recall the Mag doesn't handle high head pressure very well. It
may be the best you can do it minimize the turbulence and air contant
(no right angles, foam instead of bio-balls, stand pipe with 3/8" holes
drilled up the side, etc.).

This is the problem with sump systems. They were designed with marine
systems in mind where maximizing the O2 is desired and they did not
have to figure out how to move the water around without removing the
CO2.

"Justin Boucher" wrote in message
news:IROpe.18049$_w.9805@trnddc01...
Excellent point. This is Marine to Freshwater converstion since the tank
was designed with a marine system in mind. I am using 1" ID rigid PVC
with
only 2 elbows. I already have the standpipes drilled and one of them is
set-up as a backup stand pipe (to help prevent tank overflow)

As for the Mag, references I got from the marine group support the Mag
pumps. They do have a special mentioning for head pressure however (which
I
have figured in my calculations).


Could you or anyone else recommend a better pump? According to my catalogs
the danner mag pumps have the best head height per watt of energy used, the
only pump offered in that pet place's catalog up to date that beats the most
powerful mag pump is a seahorse pump by rainbow lifeguard and it is way more
costly than the danner mag pumps, as far as head height and flow rate is
concerned the danner mag pumps are the best unless you want to spend a ton
more and get a seahorse rainbow-lifeguard self priming pump. Later!