Help me decide brand of filter and heater, please :)

I'm hoping to go shopping for some of the equipment I will need for my new
planted 55G tank and I'm having a really hard time deciding which brand of
filter and heater to go with. I know I want a canister filter ... they seem
to be the best you can get, and I've narrowed it down to two brands:

Eheim Ecco 2231 (or maybe 2233)
OR
Filstar XP1 (or maybe XP2)

I like the Filstar cause they provide way more gph than the Ecco, they're
also a little bit cheaper, and I believe they hold more media, however,
Eheim seems to be king of canister filters. Anyway, looking for input to
help me decide.

Same dilemma with the heaters, I got it narrowed down, but can't decide. I
need a heater to backup my 100W substrate heating cables, and here are the
choices:

Ebo-Jager 50W
OR
Tronic 50W

I like the Tronic cause it's solid state, no contacts to stick, etc., which
means that if it fails, there's a better chance it will fail OFF. However,
once again, Ebo-Jager seems to be king of the heater world.

Thanks,
Harry

P.S. If you're wondering why I'm going with so little heating, check out:

http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTri...4/thermo1.html
http://www.kernsanalysis.com/HeaterCalculator.cgi

apparently all I need is around 125W.




-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

"Harry Muscle" wrote in message
...
I'm hoping to go shopping for some of the equipment I will need for my
new
planted 55G tank and I'm having a really hard time deciding which brand
of
filter and heater to go with. I know I want a canister filter ... they
seem
to be the best you can get, and I've narrowed it down to two brands:

What gets reported by people about their filters gets outdated very
quickly as manufacturer's release hardware revisions correcting any
problems found. Many of these revisions are not evident in the model
number. Check out the Fluval 304 or 404. The latest model has MSF
stamped on the chassis and uses cantilevered handles. This is what I
would purchase at this time.

With canisters, gph is not an indicator of quality. I have an Eheim
which runs 2X tank gph and it works fine. Filtering efficiency is not
determined by gph. In fact, low gph is often to your advantage, once you
have met the minimum flow needed to perform your mechanical pick-up
power, and create enough turbulence to have a uniform water temperature.
With canisters, torque would be a useful specification (the ability to
maintain a flowrate while the media fills and begins to slow things
down). Unfortunately, torque is not a published spec and the closest
equivilant (head pressure) is not really applicable to closed systems
like canisters.

Same dilemma with the heaters, I got it narrowed down, but can't
decide. I
need a heater to backup my 100W substrate heating cables, and here are
the
choices:

Ebo-Jager 50W
OR
Tronic 50W

Submersible heaters come in 2 flavours, analog or digital thermostats.
Other specs of interest are (in descending priority) temperature
stability, glass thickness, and temperature accuracy. In some cases,
overall size can be very important as well. The types I use are Thermal,
Tronic and Rena. None are as good as you would like, nor as bad as
anyone can claim ;~) I do like the Tronic because whenever I forget to
turn off the heater when servicing a tank (and the water level drops
below the heater), the Tronic automatical switches off. As long as I
don't let cold water contact the glass when it's hot, the heater will
reset itself and work properly (it doesn't burn itself out). It does
leave a slight burnt ozone smell in the air to remind me of the stupid
thing I've done (forgetting to unplug it), but since it's right, I can't
complain.

NetMax

Eheim Ecco 2231 (or maybe 2233)
OR
Filstar XP1 (or maybe XP2)

I like the Filstar cause they provide way more gph than the Ecco, they're
also a little bit cheaper, and I believe they hold more media, however,
Eheim seems to be king of canister filters. Anyway, looking for input to
help me decide.

Eheims are considered pretty reliable but can't help you choose as I've not
used the other.
I always use two filters on my larger tanks.
Same dilemma with the heaters, I got it narrowed down, but can't decide.
I
need a heater to backup my 100W substrate heating cables, and here are the
choices:

Ebo-Jager 50W
OR
Tronic 50W
P.S. If you're wondering why I'm going with so little heating, check out:

apparently all I need is around 125W.

For a backup you need a heater that could heat the tank by itself if the
other heater failed so you need a 125w & either make would do.

Sue

"NetMax" wrote in message
...

SNIP

What gets reported by people about their filters gets outdated very
quickly as manufacturer's release hardware revisions correcting any
problems found. Many of these revisions are not evident in the model
number. Check out the Fluval 304 or 404. The latest model has MSF
stamped on the chassis and uses cantileve les. This is what I
would purchase at this time.
SNIP

NetMax


Thanks NetMax, I'm just a little worried about the Fluvals since there have
been way more reports about problems with them than any other canister
filter that I have read about. Granted, these were probably about the older
, however, I also came across this review of what I'm guessing is the
latest edition of the Fluvals, since they call it the MSF model:

http://www.fishinthe.net/html/reviews-11.html

I didn't like what they said about the maintenance aspect of these filters
in that review, especially since, on another site (which I can't find the
URL for right now) a quick comparison between the Fluvals and the Filstar
filters gave the Fluval 2 out of 5 for maintenance, while the Filstar got 5.
There was no more explanation as to why, etc, but it makes me think that it
probably doesn't clog as quickly and it's easier to clean. If I find that
site with that comparison, I'll post it.

Thanks,
Harry





-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

"Harry Muscle" wrote in message
...
"NetMax" wrote in message
...

SNIP

What gets reported by people about their filters gets outdated very
quickly as manufacturer's release hardware revisions correcting any
problems found. Many of these revisions are not evident in the model
number. Check out the Fluval 304 or 404. The latest model has MSF
stamped on the chassis and uses cantileve les. This is what I
would purchase at this time.
SNIP

NetMax


Thanks NetMax, I'm just a little worried about the Fluvals since there
have
been way more reports about problems with them than any other canister
filter that I have read about. Granted, these were probably about the
older
, however, I also came across this review of what I'm guessing is
the
latest edition of the Fluvals, since they call it the MSF model:

http://www.fishinthe.net/html/reviews-11.html

I didn't like what they said about the maintenance aspect of these
filters
in that review, especially since, on another site (which I can't find
the
URL for right now) a quick comparison between the Fluvals and the
Filstar
filters gave the Fluval 2 out of 5 for maintenance, while the Filstar
got 5.
There was no more explanation as to why, etc, but it makes me think
that it
probably doesn't clog as quickly and it's easier to clean. If I find
that
site with that comparison, I'll post it.

Thanks,
Harry

Thanks for the link. The first reviewer detailed his findings more, but
had issues with maintenance. The next 7 reviewers thought is was easy to
clean but offered little details. It's always interesting the extremes
you can get from anecdotal reporting, though it's hard to imagine a
scenario which would require cleaning a canister filter every 2 weeks.

Two of my home canisters are Fluvals, eight of my work canisters are
Fluvals and I get feedback from many customers on the various filters I
sell or that they have purchased elsewhere. I also supply replacement
filter components to a wide demography (I have no competitor in my
store's neighbourhood), so I like to think I have a good handle on issues
such as serviceability and parts most likely to be replaced.

I can tell you that all my work Fluvals are on planted tanks, and some of
them *blush* I have not cleaned in over a year. I _do_ open them
periodically, but if everything looks good, I just give the bio-max a
rinse and back in it goes. Depending on your fish-load, you might find
that no accumulation occurs, (which one of my customers finds very
confusing, but his tank is overfiltered).

Servicing is flipping up 2 switches, 2 side latches and pulling the foam
or the media compartments upwards. I don't clean the impeller for normal
maintenance (though I probably should). My biggest complaint about
canisters is priming them, but newer models have very little air
entrapment, so it's just a technique to get used to. I start them dry
with the outlet in a pail. I then suck on the outlet and listen to the
water rush down into the filter and wait for it to reach the outlet.
Then I put the outlet where it belongs and turn it on. When servicing,
replace the canister as full of water as possible and there is no priming
needed, plug & go. This technique works equally well on all canister
models, regardless if they have priming capability (these priming pumps
have never impressed me and I would not pay extra for the feature). Some
very old canisters had pockets of air entrapment which would take several
hours to clear (shake the canister for a new batch of bubbles), but all
the newer models have the water move up the canister, taking air bubbles
with them.

Not much to say about impellers and catching debris. Impeller blades
either fold forwards (aggressive and high water flow), or they fold
backwards (runs quieter traps less material but has much lower torque) or
are straight-bladed (compromise between maintenance & torque). Next time
your canister is open, check your impeller blades orientation, but AFAIK,
all the canister manufacturers are using straight-blade design these
days, so there should be no significant differences between any of the
makes & models (all other things being equal, like the use of similar
strainers).

Like I've said before, with only one exception, all the big name
manufacturers have designs which have evolved through many years of
fine-tuning, so IMO there are no filters to avoid. The one exception is
a company which re-brands the Marineland Penguin into a cheaper filter by
eliminating the bio-wheel. This apparent cost saving renders an
excellent design to be almost useless. How can you preserve your
nitrifying bacteria when you need to throw it away with a proprietary
filter pouch full of carbon? This was a case of the accountants decision
over-riding the designers and common sense.

Like I said, IMHO, best value today, check out the Fluval 304 or 404 for
yourself. Have someone show you exactly how it gets serviced. Compare
it with other manufacturers. Check what parts are washable or need to be
replaced. Compare the surface area of the pre-filter sponge. Internet
research is great, but it's never the complete story, and not everyone's
expectations and applications will be the same.

NetMax

"NetMax" wrote in message
.. .

"Harry Muscle" wrote in message
...
"NetMax" wrote in message
...

SNIP

What gets reported by people about their filters gets outdated very
quickly as manufacturer's release hardware revisions correcting any
problems found. Many of these revisions are not evident in the model
number. Check out the Fluval 304 or 404. The latest model has MSF
stamped on the chassis and uses cantileve les. This is what I
would purchase at this time.
SNIP

NetMax


Thanks NetMax, I'm just a little worried about the Fluvals since there
have
been way more reports about problems with them than any other canister
filter that I have read about. Granted, these were probably about the
older
, however, I also came across this review of what I'm guessing is
the
latest edition of the Fluvals, since they call it the MSF model:

http://www.fishinthe.net/html/reviews-11.html

I didn't like what they said about the maintenance aspect of these
filters
in that review, especially since, on another site (which I can't find
the
URL for right now) a quick comparison between the Fluvals and the
Filstar
filters gave the Fluval 2 out of 5 for maintenance, while the Filstar
got 5.
There was no more explanation as to why, etc, but it makes me think
that it
probably doesn't clog as quickly and it's easier to clean. If I find
that
site with that comparison, I'll post it.

Thanks,
Harry

Thanks for the link. The first reviewer detailed his findings more, but
had issues with maintenance. The next 7 reviewers thought is was easy to
clean but offered little details. It's always interesting the extremes
you can get from anecdotal reporting, though it's hard to imagine a
scenario which would require cleaning a canister filter every 2 weeks.

Two of my home canisters are Fluvals, eight of my work canisters are
Fluvals and I get feedback from many customers on the various filters I
sell or that they have purchased elsewhere. I also supply rep ment
filter components to a wide demography (I have no competitor in my
store's neighbourhood), so I like to think I have a good handle on issues
such as serviceability and parts most likely to be rep d.

I can tell you that all my work Fluvals are on planted tanks, and some of
them *blush* I have not cleaned in over a year. I _do_ open them
periodically, but if everything looks good, I just give the bio-max a
rinse and back in it goes. Depending on your fish-load, you might find
that no accumulation occurs, (which one of my customers finds very
confusing, but his tank is overfiltered).

Servicing is flipping up 2 switches, 2 side latches and pulling the foam
or the media compartments upwards. I don't clean the impeller for normal
maintenance (though I probably should). My biggest complaint about
canisters is priming them, but newer have very little air
entrapment, so it's just a technique to get used to. I start them dry
with the outlet in a pail. I then suck on the outlet and listen to the
water rush down into the filter and wait for it to reach the outlet.
Then I put the outlet where it belongs and turn it on. When servicing,
rep the canister as full of water as possible and there is no priming
needed, plug & go. This technique works equally well on all canister
, regardless if they have priming capability (these priming pumps
have never impressed me and I would not pay extra for the feature). Some
very old canisters had pockets of air entrapment which would take several
hours to clear (shake the canister for a new batch of bubb ), ut all
the newer have the water move up the canister, taking air bubbles
with them.

Not much to say about impellers and catching debris. Impeller blades
either fold forwards (aggressive and high water flow), or they fold
backwards (runs quieter traps less material but has much lower torque) or
are straight-bladed (compromise between maintenance & torque). Next time
your canister is open, check your impeller blades orientation, but AFAIK,
all the canister manufacturers are using straight-blade design these
days, so there should be no significant differences between any of the
makes & (all other things being equal, like the use of similar
strainers).

Like I've said before, with only one exception, all the big name
manufacturers have designs which have evolved through many years of
fine-tuning, so IMO there are no filters to avoid. The one exception is
a company which re-brands the Marineland Penguin into a cheaper filter by
eliminating the bio-wheel. This apparent cost saving renders an
excellent design to be almost useless. How can you preserve your
nitrifying bacteria when you need to throw it away with a proprietary
filter pouch full of carbon? This was a case of the accountants decision
over-riding the designers and common sense.

Like I said, IMHO, best value today, check out the Fluval 304 or 404 for
yourself. Have someone show you exactly how it gets serviced. Compare
it with other manufacturers. Check what parts are washable or need to be
rep d. Compare the surface area of the pre-filter sponge. Internet
research is great, but it's never the complete story, and not everyone's
expectations and applications will be the same.

NetMax



Thank you for the response. Btw, do you sell other brands of filters, or
just the Fluvals? Would you happen to have any customer experiences you
could share about the Filstar filters? To be honest, I'm starting to think
it's gonna be between Filstar and Fluval for me now instead of Filstar vs.
Eheim. Btw, how much do you charge for the Fluval 304 and 404?

Thanks,
Harry

P.S. Have you ever had any problems with the 304/404 leaking or heard of
any customers having this problem? That is my biggest fear with these
filters.




-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 13:24:42 -0500, "NetMax"
-snip-
, however, I also came across this review of what I'm guessing is
the
latest edition of the Fluvals, since they call it the MSF model:

http://www.fishinthe.net/html/reviews-11.html


You know, if you actually read the entire review you will find that
this guy is using the wrong type of media with the fluval's. He is
using "Floss" which will clog everytime! Instead of using the filter
material that is recomended by Fluval...


Thanks for the link. The first reviewer detailed his findings more, but
had issues with maintenance. The next 7 reviewers thought is was easy to
clean but offered little details. It's always interesting the extremes
you can get from anecdotal reporting, though it's hard to imagine a
scenario which would require cleaning a canister filter every 2 weeks.
- snip-
see above

I can tell you that all my work Fluvals are on planted tanks, and some of
them *blush* I have not cleaned in over a year. I _do_ open them
periodically, but if everything looks good, I just give the bio-max a
rinse and back in it goes. Depending on your fish-load, you might find
that no accumulation occurs, (which one of my customers finds very
confusing, but his tank is overfiltered).

Simple question for you then netmax would be what media are you using
in your filters? Only biomax and the foam prefilters or are you also
using additional media of some other type?

"Harry Muscle" wrote in message
...

"NetMax" wrote in message
.. .

"Harry Muscle" wrote in message
...
"NetMax" wrote in message
...

snip

Thank you for the response. Btw, do you sell other brands of filters,
or
just the Fluvals? Would you happen to have any customer experiences
you
could share about the Filstar filters? To be honest, I'm starting to
think
it's gonna be between Filstar and Fluval for me now instead of Filstar
vs.
Eheim. Btw, how much do you charge for the Fluval 304 and 404?

I carry all the Hagen & Marineland brands. I've no experience with the
Filstar. I can't remember offhand my pricing (and I'm up in Canada), but
what is more important for you is how much you have to pay ;~). I'm told
that the best pricing is on-line, but you want to ensure that you are
getting the latest model of anything.


Thanks,
Harry

P.S. Have you ever had any problems with the 304/404 leaking or heard
of
any customers having this problem? That is my biggest fear with these
filters.

The first release of the 304/404 had a leaking problem which was
corrected before my time. The silly buggers should have renumbered the
series then, but it also looks bad if your model numbers go up for no
'apparent' reason ;~), and I see everyone else making small design
changes without model number changes as well. This makes my job a bit
harder, " was that the one with the pink impeller or the white impeller?"
Being a bit of a sceptic, it took many months of water-tight running
Fluvals of every model before I was confident enough to recommend them,
but now I'm satisfied. In a year of sales, I've had 2 returned, both for
broken handles, which happens when the motor-head is installed backwards
(you need to line up the power cord with the indent for the power cord).
The case is now stamped so you just line up the big letters on the front
of the case, with the letters on the front of the motor head.

The biggest danger with any canister filter is IMO a hose coming loose.
I recently had this occur with an Eheim, but I was right there to fix it
before I lost too much water. This really was my own fault as I had not
re-checked the connections in over a year. Both Eheim & Fluval use
compressive lock nuts which work very well, but it's still a good idea to
check & re-tighten them periodically.

NetMax

"John" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 13:24:42 -0500, "NetMax"
-snip-
, however, I also came across this review of what I'm guessing
is
the
latest edition of the Fluvals, since they call it the MSF model:

http://www.fishinthe.net/html/reviews-11.html


You know, if you actually read the entire review you will find that
this guy is using the wrong type of media with the fluval's. He is
using "Floss" which will clog everytime! Instead of using the filter
material that is recomended by Fluval...

What a silly bugger, thanks for spotting that.


Thanks for the link. The first reviewer detailed his findings more,
but
had issues with maintenance. The next 7 reviewers thought is was easy
to
clean but offered little details. It's always interesting the
extremes
you can get from anecdotal reporting, though it's hard to imagine a
scenario which would require cleaning a canister filter every 2 weeks.
- snip-
see above

I can tell you that all my work Fluvals are on planted tanks, and some
of
them *blush* I have not cleaned in over a year. I _do_ open them
periodically, but if everything looks good, I just give the bio-max a
rinse and back in it goes. Depending on your fish-load, you might
find
that no accumulation occurs, (which one of my customers finds very
confusing, but his tank is overfiltered).

Simple question for you then netmax would be what media are you using
in your filters? Only biomax and the foam prefilters or are you also
using additional media of some other type?

Basically the vertical foam pre-filters (which can last you 20-30 years
with even the most rudimentary cleaning schedule), and Bio-max in the top
compartment (rinsing periodically so the pores do not get too clogged).
Then I start experimenting ).... peat (granules) works nicely, peat
fibre (not as effective as the granules), carbon (for new tanks only or
removing medication), crushed coral (though if it's too fine, it clogs
the grill), dolomite (sitting on a thin layer of sheet fibre) and more
Bio-max (I usually have a compartment empty so in goes more Bio-max).
I'm now experimenting with the pond version of Bio-max, which is much
larger rings. Pond versions are often a better value. Bio-max are
always in the last 1 or 2 compartments. Carbon in the first (shortest
life expectancy anyways). Peat/coral/dolomite go in the middle. The
finer they are, the higher up towards the Bio-max they go. Large sizes
can go right after the pre-filters.

All my experimenting with different media is mostly optional &
application specific. When the water parameters are fine as they are,
then it's just the vertical pre-filters and lots of Bio-max. I'm looking
around for a polishing grade of floss to put into the last compartment.
I heard of some available in Germany, but haven't seen anything in North
America yet. I wish someone would invent the aquatic version of a Hepa
filter for polishing. With over 100 tanks, I'm always fighting a bloom
of some type in one of them.

NetMax

In reply to this - I use hose clamps - the metal ones tightened by a screw
driver. I have a 125 gal tank - and im away alot - and i relaly dont want
to come home to an empty tank and ruined carpet so I chose to do this. Dont
put the metal clamps in the tank - or in contact with the water. This works
very very well for me


Dustin
comments at mbbookstore.com

(QUOTE)
The biggest danger with any canister filter is IMO a hose coming loose.
I recently had this occur with an Eheim, but I was right there to fix it
before I lost too much water. This really was my own fault as I had not
re-checked the connections in over a year. Both Eheim & Fluval use
compressive lock nuts which work very well, but it's still a good idea to
check & re-tighten them periodically.

NetMax