Cory's sensitive to 4 year olds...

Hi,

I've got a male betta and two tiny cory's (corydoras pygmaeus I think
....photo at http:\\www.muddylittletaoist.org.uk\pigmycory2.jpg ) in a
22 litre tank. They have previously been very happy little guys
playing in the bubbles and scooting round checking out everywhere for
food but more recently they've started spending much more time just
sitting on the gravel and are quite skittish when anyone comes near the
tank. I've tried watching them after lights out but they seem the
same. The only time they seem busy is if I come into the room when
no-one's been there for a while and then they seem more normal. They
still play from time to time and have no signs of illness that I can
see but this has been going on for a few days now and I'm getting
concerned.

In terms of tank conditions we've got:

NH4 = 0ppm
NO2 = 0ppm
NO3 = 10 ppm and 25 ppm
Ph = 8.0
Temperature = 25 deg C or 77 deg F

I do a 25% waterchange weekly or biweekly depending on NO3 levels at
weekly test.

I'm feeding flake mainly with bloodworm and brineshrimp treats.

There are three things which might have caused this problem that I can
see. One is that I noticed that the corys seemed to be getting
precious little in the way of food because my betta will practically
take it all from my hand. So I got some catfish pellets and have been
putting 2 of those in every other day to top them up. I guess it's
possible that they're less active because they're just not hungry
anymore, so if I slow down with the pellets they may become more active
again?

The other thing is that my 4 year old ran his remote control car into
the side of the cabinet the fish tank sit's on. It made an almightly
thump and resulted in him getting banned from playing remote control
cars near the tank. It's really since then that the cory's have been
skittish. I think it scared them stupid at the time. Perhaps they are
sensitive, especially with fewer pals around they they might want and
take a long time to regain trust in their environment. The tank is
heavily planted and so does provide lots of little hiding places which
they use when they feel less safe.

The only other thing is that I changed one of my plants recently
because it wasn't doing too well in the lighting I have in this tank.
This disturbed the substrate allowing some of the mess from my
undergravel fertiliser balls to come up. I did a 30% water change
after just to be sure, the tank looked clear after that and the water
parameters didn't shift noticably. The fertilizer is nothing special
just trace elements and iron.

I was thinking that I might be able to fit another cory in this little
tank without pushing the stocking levels too much and I wondered if
that might help because I know cory's like to school and these pygmy
chaps like to school in their thousands in the wild.

Ho hum,

Anyone got an ideas?

Thanks!

muddy

On 12 Mar 2006 04:20:34 -0800, "muddyfox"
wrote:

Hi,

I've got a male betta and two tiny cory's (corydoras pygmaeus I think
...photo at http:\\www.muddylittletaoist.org.uk\pigmycory2.jpg ) in a
22 litre tank. They have previously been very happy little guys
playing in the bubbles and scooting round checking out everywhere for
food but more recently they've started spending much more time just
sitting on the gravel and are quite skittish when anyone comes near the
tank. I've tried watching them after lights out but they seem the
same. The only time they seem busy is if I come into the room when
no-one's been there for a while and then they seem more normal. They
still play from time to time and have no signs of illness that I can
see but this has been going on for a few days now and I'm getting
concerned.

In terms of tank conditions we've got:

NH4 = 0ppm
NO2 = 0ppm
NO3 = 10 ppm and 25 ppm
Ph = 8.0
Temperature = 25 deg C or 77 deg F

I do a 25% waterchange weekly or biweekly depending on NO3 levels at
weekly test.

I'm feeding flake mainly with bloodworm and brineshrimp treats.

There are three things which might have caused this problem that I can
see. One is that I noticed that the corys seemed to be getting
precious little in the way of food because my betta will practically
take it all from my hand. So I got some catfish pellets and have been
putting 2 of those in every other day to top them up. I guess it's
possible that they're less active because they're just not hungry
anymore, so if I slow down with the pellets they may become more active
again?

The other thing is that my 4 year old ran his remote control car into
the side of the cabinet the fish tank sit's on. It made an almightly
thump and resulted in him getting banned from playing remote control
cars near the tank. It's really since then that the cory's have been
skittish. I think it scared them stupid at the time. Perhaps they are
sensitive, especially with fewer pals around they they might want and
take a long time to regain trust in their environment. The tank is
heavily planted and so does provide lots of little hiding places which
they use when they feel less safe.

The only other thing is that I changed one of my plants recently
because it wasn't doing too well in the lighting I have in this tank.
This disturbed the substrate allowing some of the mess from my
undergravel fertiliser balls to come up. I did a 30% water change
after just to be sure, the tank looked clear after that and the water
parameters didn't shift noticably. The fertilizer is nothing special
just trace elements and iron.

I was thinking that I might be able to fit another cory in this little
tank without pushing the stocking levels too much and I wondered if
that might help because I know cory's like to school and these pygmy
chaps like to school in their thousands in the wild.

Ho hum,

Anyone got an ideas?

Thanks!

muddy

You've partly answered your own question. 2 corys makes for a boring
life. A third might help, but I consider 5 as a minimum. And your
tank, 22L = around 5 gallons, right?, does not provide nearly enough
play area. Corys like to swim - they like to race back and forth -
they like to playfully chase each other. They may be small in size,
but they do much better in a larger aquarium - 5 in a 10 gallon is my
minimum. I keep a cory only tank - 15 gallons - and expect they'll be
moving to a 20 Long one of these days. Your density of plants might be
too dense for field and track events. Make sure your plant arrangement
allows for a good stretch of open swimming area. Regarding food, they
love treats of bloodworms - I read an article recently where it was
discovered than when dissected, cory gut contents were 50% blood and
other worms in several different habitats in their homeland. So when
you feed bloodworms, give that betta a smack upside his head so the
corys will have a chance to get their fair share. As voracious as your
betta's appetite seems to be, there will always be some that falls
into the gravel. And I'm sure you know that whatever problems you
bring to rec aquaria etc will get at least one response advising you
to increase your water changes. 25% every one or two weeks is not
nearly enough, especially in a small tank. I suggest increasing to 50%
weekly, twice a week would be even better. And vacuum your gravel well
when doing water changes. Corys like soft water a little on the acid
side, but 7 is fine. You didn't mention your hardness, but pH 8 is
pretty high. However, if they were previously active in that high pH,
maybe they've acclimated to it.

-- Mister Gardener

Hi,

Thanks for that.

I can easily change the water twice a week and I always give the gravel
a good going over when I do that. I was doing it twice a week when I
first got the tank set up until a friend said I was doing it way too
much. My own feeling is that more would be better. I will try about
30 - 35% twice a week.

I don't think the pH should be too much of a problem since the LFS
suffers with the same mega hard water that we have here so they should
be acclimatised.

In terms of space and tank size there is plenty of room in the tank
for swimming from one end to the other unimpeded but I'll take on board
what you said. (My LFS said that these would be perfect for a 5G tank
too!) I'm in the process of setting up a 60-65 litre planted tank
which will have a lot more space for fun and frolicks. It may also be
more acidic since I'm thinking of using ADA Aquasoil which buffers the
water to about pH 6.5 ish. It won't have a bubble stream though
because that would dump my CO2 out of the water. If you think they'd
be happier in here with a few friends, say 5 in total, then I could
easily transfer them when the fishless cycle is finished.

Thanks again for the pointers,

muddy

PS: I don't think they've ever got even one bloodworm - the betta is
mad for them. Maybe I'll squish some up tight so they sink fast. (The
betta can't seem to get stuff that's landed on the gravel very easily -
upturned mouth makes it tricky I think.

muddyfox wrote:

Hi,

Thanks for that.

I can easily change the water twice a week and I always give the
gravel
a good going over when I do that. I was doing it twice a week when I
first got the tank set up until a friend said I was doing it way too
much. My own feeling is that more would be better. I will try about
30 - 35% twice a week.


Frequency and amount of water changes can be a contentious issue.

I can say that I have a heavily planted overstocked 10 gallon tank that
I change 10% weekly - occasionally 20% and I've had no problems with
water quality.

For an unplanted tank, your twice a week is probably the way to go, but
even there I'd only change 20%-25% unless you preheat the new water.

But remember, that's only an opinion - of which there is no lack in this
hobby :-).

Before I get responses decrying my overstocking, my larger tanks are
almost ready :-).

--
It's turtles, all the way down

muddyfox wrote:

Hi,

Thanks for that.

I can easily change the water twice a week and I always give the gravel
a good going over when I do that.

In an established tank gravel vacuuming can be counterproductive, as the
mud -albeit a bit unsightly- actually contains useful bacteria. You
don't want an operating theater, but a working biological system.


I don't think the pH should be too much of a problem since the LFS
suffers with the same mega hard water that we have here so they should
be acclimatised.

IMHO it is much better to keep fishes that fit the water one has. Second
best option is to alter the water to fit the fishes one likes to keep
(e.g. reversed osmosis). Puting fishes into water with very different
params from what they require may harm them in the long term, for
example there are reports that neons get kidney stones in hard water.


In terms of space and tank size there is plenty of room in the tank
for swimming from one end to the other unimpeded but I'll take on board
what you said. (My LFS said that these would be perfect for a 5G tank
too!) I'm in the process of setting up a 60-65 litre planted tank

Corys are swarm fishes, group size should be no less than half a dozen
and the more the merrier. At about 5 cm each that means a minimum of 60
l for the tank (approx 15 gal), better more since they are so active.
Indeed as a rule of thumb tanks of 100 l (25 gal) or more tend to be
more stable and easier to maintain than the very small ones.

which will have a lot more space for fun and frolicks. It may also be
more acidic since I'm thinking of using ADA Aquasoil which buffers the
water to about pH 6.5 ish.

I have made bad experiences with pH-lowering chemicals. At least some
contain phosphate as buffering agent, I wonder which homo hebes got that
idea. Better use peat or oak leaves (corys love to play with those!).

It won't have a bubble stream though
because that would dump my CO2 out of the water.

Do you add CO2 to your tank? That is not realy necessary, plants grow
just fine with the CO2 that the water contains in equilibrium with air.
The money for the CO2 unit is better spend on a larger tank, IMHO

On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 16:48:47 +0100, Dr Engelbert Buxbaum
wrote:


In terms of space and tank size there is plenty of room in the tank
for swimming from one end to the other unimpeded but I'll take on board
what you said.

I'm envisioning a jungle animal pacing back and forth in his
"generously sized" cage.

(My LFS said that these would be perfect for a 5G tank
too!) I'm in the process of setting up a 60-65 litre planted tank

All too often, some LFS people will tell you anything to make a sale.
There are very few fish that will thrive in a 5 gallon, especially if
more than a single fish is being considered. Surviving is not the same
as thriving.

Corys are swarm fishes, group size should be no less than half a dozen
and the more the merrier. At about 5 cm each that means a minimum of 60
l for the tank (approx 15 gal), better more since they are so active.
Indeed as a rule of thumb tanks of 100 l (25 gal) or more tend to be
more stable and easier to maintain than the very small ones.

My dozen Corys are only about half grown, and they use every inch of
their 15 gallon tank. I am already planning for their 20 Long, which
will give them lots more horizontal space - they love zooming back and
forth and back and forth, sometimes together, other times as if they
were playing a game of tag. The more space they have, the more fun
they are to watch. And without going overboard with the
anthropomorphizing (I love that word), I think they're having fun.

which will have a lot more space for fun and frolicks. It may also be
more acidic since I'm thinking of using ADA Aquasoil which buffers the
water to about pH 6.5 ish.

I have made bad experiences with pH-lowering chemicals. At least some
contain phosphate as buffering agent, I wonder which homo hebes got that
idea. Better use peat or oak leaves (corys love to play with those!).

I agree. I have never felt secure with chemical pH adjusters. I found
myself testing all the time. I'm much more comfortable with stuff like
peat or crushed coral, depending on which way I want to go. The fewer
chemicals I add, the less chance of something going wrong. My water is
very soft, 2 or 3 DH at best, and the 7.0 pH from the tap settles in
at 6.6 within a couple of days. I have a pile of oak leaves I want to
add to the Cory tank, but I don't know what that will do to my pH.
With so little carbonate hardness . . . I want to increase my
carbonate hardness a little without getting things complicated. Maybe
I'll try a little crushed coral in the filter.

It won't have a bubble stream though
because that would dump my CO2 out of the water.

Do you add CO2 to your tank? That is not realy necessary, plants grow
just fine with the CO2 that the water contains in equilibrium with air.
The money for the CO2 unit is better spend on a larger tank, IMHO

I have grown beautiful aquarium plants for most of my life, in the
pre-CO2 days. Of course, we didn't have the high tech lighting and
fertilizers that we have today, but I'm going to give stuff like
Flourish Excel, and I just read in a catalog that someone else is
producing a carbon fertilizer, a very good trial before I even
consider CO2. I really think one needs to master, no, there are few
masters, how about "gain knowledge and experience and success" with
some of the less demanding plants before investing in CO2, investing
meaning either money (full system) or time (DIY). And for certain, if
there are fish in the tank, learning their care should always be the
first step for a beginning aquarist.

-- Mister Gardener

Mr. Gardener wrote:

I'm envisioning a jungle animal pacing back and forth in his
"generously sized" cage.

They usually spend a lot of time playing with each other in the bubbles
and a lot of time swimming in and out of the plants and rocks looking
for scraps on every surface.


All too often, some LFS people will tell you anything to make a sale.
There are very few fish that will thrive in a 5 gallon, especially if
more than a single fish is being considered. Surviving is not the same
as thriving.

Yup - and I want thriving if I can arrange it. The main fish I wanted
in the tank was the male betta and my feeling is that he's quite happy
there. The FS suggested a couple of Corys to clean up the bottom and I
went for it. (I really love those little guys.) This may have been a
mistake, although, saying that they seem happy again now I've upped the
water changes again.


My dozen Corys are only about half grown, and they use every inch of
their 15 gallon tank. I am already planning for their 20 Long, which
will give them lots more horizontal space - they love zooming back and
forth and back and forth, sometimes together, other times as if they
were playing a game of tag. The more space they have, the more fun
they are to watch. And without going overboard with the
anthropomorphizing (I love that word), I think they're having fun.

That sounds really lovely. I think that's definitely one of the
biggest joys of fishkeeping for me - when you get it right and are
rewarded by happy, healthy fish. It's certainly what I'm aiming for!

Regards,

Muddy

Dr Engelbert Buxbaum wrote:

snip

I've always been a little suspicious about posts with "MISMATCH" in the
path (see below). And when they start using phrases like "homo hebes"
my suspicions become conclusions.

Into the bozo bin with Englebert!

sn-us!sn-feed-sjc-01!sn-xt-sjc-10!sn-xt-sjc-01!sn-xt-sjc-05
!supernews.com!207.217.77.43.MISMATCH!elnk-pas-nf1!elnk-nf2-pas!n

--
It's turtles, all the way down

"Larry Blanchard" wrote in message
...
Dr Engelbert Buxbaum wrote:

snip

I've always been a little suspicious about posts with "MISMATCH" in the
path (see below). And when they start using phrases like "homo hebes"
my suspicions become conclusions.

Into the bozo bin with Englebert!

sn-us!sn-feed-sjc-01!sn-xt-sjc-10!sn-xt-sjc-01!sn-xt-sjc-05
!supernews.com!207.217.77.43.MISMATCH!elnk-pas-nf1!elnk-nf2-pas!n

--
It's turtles, all the way down

I don't see the post you mention, but if you're referring to Buxbaum -
he's great poster (imo) - technical, on-topic, does his research, never a
mean thing said to anyone. His English can be a bit stilted (I think
he's more at home posting in the German chemistry newsgroups), but rafm
has had the good fortune of the Dr's contributions for quite a long time.
Perhaps some forgeries are at work? Is this really Larry?
*as the sound of The Twilight Zone starts in the background ;~)*
--
www.NetMax.tk

Dr Engelbert Buxbaum wrote:

In an established tank gravel vacuuming can be counterproductive, as the
mud -albeit a bit unsightly- actually contains useful bacteria. You
don't want an operating theater, but a working biological system.

Absolutely, I'm trying to find a balance where there isn't excessive
build up of waste material or too much distubance to the bacteria.

IMHO it is much better to keep fishes that fit the water one has. Second
best option is to alter the water to fit the fishes one likes to keep
(e.g. reversed osmosis). Puting fishes into water with very different
params from what they require may harm them in the long term, for
example there are reports that neons get kidney stones in hard water.

This has always been my approach. My difficulty has been the range of
data available. For example, two of my freshwater tropical aquarium
books state that Corydoras spp are happy in a wide range of water types
and one says that they prefer slightly acidic water. How does one know
who to believe? My LFS said that the 2 corys would be fine in a pair
and would be ideal for a 5G tank, in fact they took me to the tank and
recommended them to go with my betta, but their expert advice appears
to have been quite far out.



I have made bad experiences with pH-lowering chemicals. At least some
contain phosphate as buffering agent, I wonder which homo hebes got that
idea. Better use peat or oak leaves (corys love to play with those!).

The ADA Aquasoil will sit on a bed of peat and mulm. I don't know how
the Aquasoil reduces the pH - maybe it's the peat. My understanding
from folk on an aquatic plant forum (Aquatic Plant Central) is that the
pH comes down and then stays there stable for months and years rather
than days and weeks. Tom Barr might know more details - I believe he's
used Aqua Soil quite a bit. Also, I didn't choose the Aquasoil for
it's pH changing ability but for it's excellent effect on plants. My
intention is to set the tank up, fully plant it, run a fishless cycle
and then add fish which will thrive in the conditions I have. I just
thought that the Cory's might be good candidates.


Do you add CO2 to your tank? That is not realy necessary, plants grow
just fine with the CO2 that the water contains in equilibrium with air.
The money for the CO2 unit is better spend on a larger tank, IMHO

No, I don't have any CO2 in that tank. I was talking about the new
60-65 litre planted tank I'm in the process of setting up. I was
wondering if the Corys might be happier there, especially if I get 3 or
4 little pals for them to school with. They're Corydoras pygmaeus so
they only get to be 2-3 cm long maximum.


Thanks for your comments and insights,

Muddy


(PS: Sorry if this message is duplicated - my little boy was mucking
about with the computer earlier today and I lost my forst attempt to
reply!)