Recommendation or 2 about dealing with overpopulation....

Only time will tell - it sure has. I cannot seem to be able to keep my
nitrites down any more and the silver dollars were breathing/gilling hard
before my latest water change (1 hour ago) and the fancy guppies are dieing
off approximately one every 2 days (unfortunately females - maybe because
they are large and need more oxygen which their gills are unable to provide
enough of because of the nitrite inhibiting their gill action) occasional a
male passes away, and today the silver dollars aren't eating and the fancy
guppies aren't eating nearly as much as they used to. I talked to my lfs
representative (don't worry about my choice of words - my lfs has been
family (not my family) run for over a decade) and he agrees with my plan to
buy an oscar for $9.00 to eat the fancy guppies (all of them) and raise it
in this 55 gallon tank (the silver dollar tank), and he agrees I could use
other large fish like other cichlids. His bottom line is that he says he is
confident he can sell me a function fish to take care of this problem for
sure. I consider this idea a humane way to deal with the situation (it
doesn't bother me and unfortunately it is the only reasonable way I can
think of about how to deal with this overpopulation problem) especially
considering what the humane society of america does with higher animals
(dogs, cats). Of course I am open for recommendations and the oscar or other
large fish (the oscar would be sold to me at a 2 or 3 inch size which I
worry might not be hardy enough to grow through the initial high nitrites
that would be in the silver dollar tank ultimately with the silver dollars
and the one large cichlid type of fish and the tank is a 55 gallon tank -
would that be o.k. guys/gals and including those of you who are experts?
Even with the function fish I will have fancy guppies in 2 other tanks that
can be used to hopefully humanely feed as live food to the function fish
later after the silver dollar tank is "cleaned out". The other tanks have no
problems right now because one of them has 3 turtles in it that keep the
fancy guppy population under control and the other tank has only just
re-started a population of fancy guppies in it. Thanks for reading this and
please give me advice?! Thanks, good luck and later! P.s. I am looking at a
2 or 3 or less week timeframe to get the new "big" fish and I hope it works!
I will never burry any fish alive so to speak, because I consider that
inhumane so I won't throw the fish out with the garbage or anything like
that so to speak (I know....I know.... some people have a hard time
differentiating what's humane compared between burying alive and providing
to other creatures as food which is most likely a quick death making it more
human) but I have to do something or else I might lose my silver dollars and
after that one recovering from the accident a few months ago so well it
would be a shame to lose one or both of them to a dumb overpopulation
problem. Again, later!

"Daniel Morrow" wrote in message
...
Only time will tell - it sure has. I cannot seem to be able to keep my
nitrites down any more and the silver dollars were breathing/gilling
hard
before my latest water change (1 hour ago) and the fancy guppies are
dieing
off approximately one every 2 days (unfortunately females - maybe
because
they are large and need more oxygen which their gills are unable to
provide
enough of because of the nitrite inhibiting their gill action)
occasional a
male passes away, and today the silver dollars aren't eating and the
fancy
guppies aren't eating nearly as much as they used to. I talked to my
lfs
representative (don't worry about my choice of words - my lfs has been
family (not my family) run for over a decade) and he agrees with my
plan to
buy an oscar for $9.00 to eat the fancy guppies (all of them) and raise
it
in this 55 gallon tank (the silver dollar tank), and he agrees I could
use
other large fish like other cichlids. His bottom line is that he says
he is
confident he can sell me a function fish to take care of this problem
for
sure. I consider this idea a humane way to deal with the situation (it
doesn't bother me and unfortunately it is the only reasonable way I can
think of about how to deal with this overpopulation problem) especially
considering what the humane society of america does with higher animals
(dogs, cats). Of course I am open for recommendations and the oscar or
other
large fish (the oscar would be sold to me at a 2 or 3 inch size which I
worry might not be hardy enough to grow through the initial high
nitrites
that would be in the silver dollar tank ultimately with the silver
dollars
and the one large cichlid type of fish and the tank is a 55 gallon
tank -
would that be o.k. guys/gals and including those of you who are
experts?
Even with the function fish I will have fancy guppies in 2 other tanks
that
can be used to hopefully humanely feed as live food to the function
fish
later after the silver dollar tank is "cleaned out". The other tanks
have no
problems right now because one of them has 3 turtles in it that keep
the
fancy guppy population under control and the other tank has only just
re-started a population of fancy guppies in it. Thanks for reading this
and
please give me advice?! Thanks, good luck and later! P.s. I am looking
at a
2 or 3 or less week timeframe to get the new "big" fish and I hope it
works!
I will never burry any fish alive so to speak, because I consider that
inhumane so I won't throw the fish out with the garbage or anything
like
that so to speak (I know....I know.... some people have a hard time
differentiating what's humane compared between burying alive and
providing
to other creatures as food which is most likely a quick death making it
more
human) but I have to do something or else I might lose my silver
dollars and
after that one recovering from the accident a few months ago so well it
would be a shame to lose one or both of them to a dumb overpopulation
problem. Again, later!


It's a bad idea to move any fish into a tank which is having problems.
Also it can be a bad idea to buy function fish, as the function is
quickly addressed leaving you with a fish to cater to. This is never so
obvious as when adding an Oscar to a Guppy tank. If you want an Oscar,
then buy an Oscar. If you have too many Guppies, bag them all to the
LFS. An Oscar will not stop with the small Guppies, and will basically
wipe the population out. If you want a carnivorous predator, Bettas,
medium Gouramis and medium sized cichlids will fill that role, but you
don't have a healthy tank to put them in. jmo, best wishes with that.
--
www.NetMax.tk

Daniel Morrow wrote:
Only time will tell - it sure has. I cannot seem to be able to keep my
nitrites down any more and the silver dollars were breathing/gilling hard
before my latest water change (1 hour ago) and the fancy guppies are dieing
off approximately one every 2 days (unfortunately females - maybe because
they are large and need more oxygen which their gills are unable to provide
enough of because of the nitrite inhibiting their gill action) occasional a
male passes away, and today the silver dollars aren't eating and the fancy
guppies aren't eating nearly as much as they used to. I talked to my lfs
representative (don't worry about my choice of words - my lfs has been
family (not my family) run for over a decade) and he agrees with my plan to
buy an oscar for $9.00 to eat the fancy guppies (all of them) and raise it
in this 55 gallon tank (the silver dollar tank), and he agrees I could use
other large fish like other cichlids. His bottom line is that he says he is
confident he can sell me a function fish to take care of this problem for
sure. I consider this idea a humane way to deal with the situation (it
doesn't bother me and unfortunately it is the only reasonable way I can
think of about how to deal with this overpopulation problem) especially
considering what the humane society of america does with higher animals
(dogs, cats). Of course I am open for recommendations and the oscar or other
large fish (the oscar would be sold to me at a 2 or 3 inch size which I
worry might not be hardy enough to grow through the initial high nitrites
that would be in the silver dollar tank ultimately with the silver dollars
and the one large cichlid type of fish and the tank is a 55 gallon tank -
would that be o.k. guys/gals and including those of you who are experts?
Even with the function fish I will have fancy guppies in 2 other tanks that
can be used to hopefully humanely feed as live food to the function fish
later after the silver dollar tank is "cleaned out". The other tanks have no
problems right now because one of them has 3 turtles in it that keep the
fancy guppy population under control and the other tank has only just
re-started a population of fancy guppies in it. Thanks for reading this and
please give me advice?! Thanks, good luck and later! P.s. I am looking at a
2 or 3 or less week timeframe to get the new "big" fish and I hope it works!
I will never burry any fish alive so to speak, because I consider that
inhumane so I won't throw the fish out with the garbage or anything like
that so to speak (I know....I know.... some people have a hard time
differentiating what's humane compared between burying alive and providing
to other creatures as food which is most likely a quick death making it more
human) but I have to do something or else I might lose my silver dollars and
after that one recovering from the accident a few months ago so well it
would be a shame to lose one or both of them to a dumb overpopulation
problem. Again, later!


Slow down. I find it hard to believe that you can't find a store that
would take a batch of healthy, locally-raised guppies for free so you
can clear out your tank.

Do you actually want an oscar? If you do, go for it. Remember that an
oscar is not a swimming trash dump or "function fish". It's a huge,
long-lived fish that requires a considerable commitment of tank space
and care. You'll have to be careful in your choice of tankmates too.
The silver dollars will probably be OK and you might have room for
something like a firemouth, depending on how many silver dollars.

Also, you have turtles that eat guppies so you have a way to get rid of
the gravid adult females. Plenty of other fish eat baby guppies. Put
the females in the turtle tank. Add an angelfish, a few large tetras,
or a couple of loaches to the 55 gallon and you'll have nothing but
males soon enough.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

Daniel wrote,
I cannot seem to be able to keep my nitrites down........

Sounds to me like you don't have enough filter media for the bio-load!

guppies are dieing off approximately one every two days......
and today the silver dollars aren't eating.....
guppies aren't eating nearly as much......

*If* it were nitrite poisoning, at least some of the fish would be
showing red streaks on their bodys, they become listless, gasp, hang
near water outlets, tan or brown gills with rapid gill movement (brown
blood disease - forms methenoglobin, which renders blood unable to
carry oxygen, so the fish die from suffocation)... I don't see it to be
nitrite poisoning - if it was you would have a *lot* more fish dying
than one every other day, and the largest fish (silver dollars) would
have been the first to die! Something else going on in the tank - being
overpopulated, I would suspect a bacterial infection. Skin and gill
fluke infections can cause the same symptoms you outlined and can also
be due to overcrowding....
Getting back to the high nitrites - a half tsb. of salt per gal.
(0.5ppm) will help the fish. Stop feeding untill the nitrite level
drops. A product called Prime bounds nitrite up to 24 hours, rendering
nitrite non-toxic (or not near as toxic). How high is the nitrAte?
............ Frank

Bottom posted.
Slow down. I find it hard to believe that you can't find a store that
would take a batch of healthy, locally-raised guppies for free so you
can clear out your tank.

Do you actually want an oscar? If you do, go for it. Remember that
an oscar is not a swimming trash dump or "function fish". It's a
huge, long-lived fish that requires a considerable commitment of tank
space and care. You'll have to be careful in your choice of
tankmates too. The silver dollars will probably be OK and you might
have room for something like a firemouth, depending on how many
silver dollars.

Also, you have turtles that eat guppies so you have a way to get rid
of the gravid adult females. Plenty of other fish eat baby guppies.
Put the females in the turtle tank. Add an angelfish, a few large
tetras, or a couple of loaches to the 55 gallon and you'll have
nothing but males soon enough.

I like altum's recommendations the most. What to do about the water quality?
Well the nitrites and nitrates are high even after changing 40% of the water
every other day up until recently (the nitrites and nitrates are still sky
high but I stopped changing water as much recently since behaviorally all of
the fish WERE doing fine). I must have lost that one angel recently because
of the high nitrites/nitrates, which means I might NOT be able to
successfully add a function fish anyways? One thing about the turtle tank
though is the turtles are a small species that I have and they don't eat
even close to ALL of the guppies in their tank so I can't really get rid of
upcoming guppies. All other water characteristics are fine (soft water (I
know that guppies prefer hard water but mine have lived at least 1 year in
water from the same dechlorinated tap water source so they should be well
adjusted by now), non-alkaline, ph 6.5, no ammonia, the rest I said before),
high nitrites or nitrates HAVE to be the cause of the deaths in my opinion
and I can't seem to be able to reduce them at all at least with the current
occupants. I have a lot of babies in the silver dollar tank that can grow up
after otherwise eradicating them, to be male or female fancy guppies. I am
getting very weary of picking out fish corpses every other day so I am going
to try something drastic most likely and take in what I can of the fancy
guppies in that tank and use it towards a large fish like an oscar. I can't
figure out why the fancy guppies die slowly and I want to do something that
works. Netmax has my concerns in mind as well as if I introduce a 2-3 inch
oscar as my lfs offers then the oscar could die off soon after from whatever
is killing the fancy guppies. It just HAS to be nitrite/nitrate poisoning as
with both my silver dollar tank and my bedroom tank the fancy guppies die
off after overpopulating - summary: I have seen this cycle before. Sorry
netmax if you are getting sick and tired of dealing with my silver tank
problem (I have been trying to figure out what has been going on with it for
6 to 12 months now ad I still haven't figured it out, as I have posted many
times about my various potential answers to this problem) but I want to
treat my pets RIGHT and not leave them to die when something just HAS to be
going on that I have to figure out. Even if I got an oscar and it survives
to fix this problem I would even be able to feed it live food in the form of
fancy guppies from my other two tanks (I have a lot of fancy guppies in my
bedroom tank and turtle tank) and I will still have a lot of fancy guppies.
Sorry if I talk too much guys but this is important to me, my fancy guppies
should not be dieing off like this and I add a tsp. of salt for every 5
gallons and I have plants. Problem just keeps coming back. I even tried a
full treatment of formalin with this tank and no real difference. I guess it
all boils down to what I WANT to do more than what I CAN do, like netmax
says. Suggestion box is still open of course but I guess I will have to plan
for myself. Good luck all and thanks for reading and recommendations are
still welcome of course. Later!

On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 19:17:05 -0600, NetMax wrote
(in article ):



It's a bad idea to move any fish into a tank which is having problems.
Also it can be a bad idea to buy function fish, as the function is
quickly addressed leaving you with a fish to cater to. This is never so
obvious as when adding an Oscar to a Guppy tank. If you want an Oscar,
then buy an Oscar. If you have too many Guppies, bag them all to the
LFS. An Oscar will not stop with the small Guppies, and will basically
wipe the population out. If you want a carnivorous predator, Bettas,
medium Gouramis and medium sized cichlids will fill that role, but you
don't have a healthy tank to put them in. jmo, best wishes with that.


"Function fish"! I love that term. I wish I had heard it when I was working
as a fish professional. I couldn't believe how many people wanted to add a
fish to a tank with problems in order to solve that problem. A bit like the
old lady who swallowed the fly.

Once the guppies from the original post are thinned out and a few partials
have been done, I'd recommend a couple of black skirt tetras to keep the
babies in check. Or better still, net a few Gambusia from the local ditch and
witness the livebearer on livebearer mayhem. Gambusia are the toughest fish
under two inches.

-E

Bottom posted.
Eric wrote:
On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 19:17:05 -0600, NetMax wrote
(in article ):



It's a bad idea to move any fish into a tank which is having
problems. Also it can be a bad idea to buy function fish, as the
function is quickly addressed leaving you with a fish to cater to.
This is never so obvious as when adding an Oscar to a Guppy tank.
If you want an Oscar, then buy an Oscar. If you have too many
Guppies, bag them all to the LFS. An Oscar will not stop with the
small Guppies, and will basically wipe the population out. If you
want a carnivorous predator, Bettas, medium Gouramis and medium
sized cichlids will fill that role, but you don't have a healthy
tank to put them in. jmo, best wishes with that.


"Function fish"! I love that term. I wish I had heard it when I was
working as a fish professional. I couldn't believe how many people
wanted to add a fish to a tank with problems in order to solve that
problem. A bit like the old lady who swallowed the fly.

Once the guppies from the original post are thinned out and a few
partials have been done, I'd recommend a couple of black skirt tetras
to keep the babies in check. Or better still, net a few Gambusia from
the local ditch and witness the livebearer on livebearer mayhem.
Gambusia are the toughest fish under two inches.

-E

I didn't invent or come up with the phrase "function fish", I have seen it
used on this newsgroup before. Quite frankly I would rather have one 55
gallon tank with my two silver dollars and 1 oscar than the silver dollars
with a couple mountain minnows (like now) and tons of fancy guppies with a
guppy dieing every other day. Come on guys - even fancy guppies are supposed
to live at least a year except for the high nitrates and nitrites. Could my
problem be not enough oxygen? I don't have decent transportation so I can't
get to the lfs 14 miles away one way to drop off bags of fancy guppies every
2 weeks to 1 month, I've done it before and I just don't have that much time
on my hands anymore. I doubt the bus system drivers would let me carry on
bags of fish each trip and I sure can't get to the store often enough to
keep buying rubbermaid tubs which the bus driver wouldn't allow anyways. I'm
sorry if I sound negative but when people chastise me after acting on
assumptions and incorrect information even after I have already said the
correct/accurate information here before it really saddens me - don't you
guys know me by now? I guess not. I am sorry I even asked about this
subject, geez, [goes away sulking]. :-(

Daniel Morrow wrote:

I didn't invent or come up with the phrase "function fish", I have seen it
used on this newsgroup before. Quite frankly I would rather have one 55
gallon tank with my two silver dollars and 1 oscar than the silver dollars
with a couple mountain minnows (like now) and tons of fancy guppies with a
guppy dieing every other day. Come on guys - even fancy guppies are supposed
to live at least a year except for the high nitrates and nitrites. Could my
problem be not enough oxygen? I don't have decent transportation so I can't
get to the lfs 14 miles away one way to drop off bags of fancy guppies every
2 weeks to 1 month, I've done it before and I just don't have that much time
on my hands anymore. I doubt the bus system drivers would let me carry on
bags of fish each trip and I sure can't get to the store often enough to
keep buying rubbermaid tubs which the bus driver wouldn't allow anyways. I'm
sorry if I sound negative but when people chastise me after acting on
assumptions and incorrect information even after I have already said the
correct/accurate information here before it really saddens me - don't you
guys know me by now? I guess not. I am sorry I even asked about this
subject, geez, [goes away sulking]. :-(

Hey...don't sulk. Frank makes a good point about fish tending to all
show toxicity at the same time from nitrites. There are guppy viruses
and some fancy guppies are really sensitive to certain bacteria.
Parasites can cause problems like you're seeing too. Are you sure there
isn't velvet or tetrahymena in the tank? Check the slimecoats of your
fish with a flashlight for parasites. There's also a guppy fluke
disease called gyrodactylus that's gotten more common in the hobby. It
causes bad shimmies and eventually death when it gets in the gills. You
treat it with formalin.

What are your ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate results? How bad is the
water in the tank, and is there any way to get more biofiltration going
like a big sponge filer (or two)? Nitrates aren't particularly toxic so
you can buy yourself some time. You have some salt in the tank, right?
Silver dollars will be OK with 1 tsp/gallon for a while and the salt
helps counteract nitrite toxicity.

While you're waiting for the extra filter to help, think about your tank
plans. Oscars are cool, but you do have other options. Most small
carnivorous fish will catch and eat baby guppies and hold the population
down. The adults may continue to die off, particularly if you have one
of the nasty Singapore viruses in the tank. If not, you'll have a
stable population of healthy guppies and some tetras, an angelfish,
loaches, or whatever other baby guppy eating fish you choose.

Do keep posting - your tank doesn't sound like any fun right now and
we're happy to help out.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

Altum wrote:
Daniel Morrow wrote:

I didn't invent or come up with the phrase "function fish", I have
seen it
used on this newsgroup before. Quite frankly I would rather have one 55
gallon tank with my two silver dollars and 1 oscar than the silver
dollars
with a couple mountain minnows (like now) and tons of fancy guppies
with a
guppy dieing every other day. Come on guys - even fancy guppies are
supposed
to live at least a year except for the high nitrates and nitrites.
Could my
problem be not enough oxygen? I don't have decent transportation so I
can't
get to the lfs 14 miles away one way to drop off bags of fancy guppies
every
2 weeks to 1 month, I've done it before and I just don't have that
much time
on my hands anymore. I doubt the bus system drivers would let me carry on
bags of fish each trip and I sure can't get to the store often enough to
keep buying rubbermaid tubs which the bus driver wouldn't allow
anyways. I'm
sorry if I sound negative but when people chastise me after acting on
assumptions and incorrect information even after I have already said the
correct/accurate information here before it really saddens me - don't you
guys know me by now? I guess not. I am sorry I even asked about this
subject, geez, [goes away sulking]. :-(


Hey...don't sulk. Frank makes a good point about fish tending to all
show toxicity at the same time from nitrites. There are guppy viruses
and some fancy guppies are really sensitive to certain bacteria.
Parasites can cause problems like you're seeing too. Are you sure there
isn't velvet or tetrahymena in the tank? Check the slimecoats of your
fish with a flashlight for parasites. There's also a guppy fluke
disease called gyrodactylus that's gotten more common in the hobby. It
causes bad shimmies and eventually death when it gets in the gills. You
treat it with formalin.

What are your ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate results? How bad is the
water in the tank, and is there any way to get more biofiltration going
like a big sponge filer (or two)? Nitrates aren't particularly toxic so
you can buy yourself some time. You have some salt in the tank, right?
Silver dollars will be OK with 1 tsp/gallon for a while and the salt
helps counteract nitrite toxicity.

While you're waiting for the extra filter to help, think about your tank
plans. Oscars are cool, but you do have other options. Most small
carnivorous fish will catch and eat baby guppies and hold the population
down. The adults may continue to die off, particularly if you have one
of the nasty Singapore viruses in the tank. If not, you'll have a
stable population of healthy guppies and some tetras, an angelfish,
loaches, or whatever other baby guppy eating fish you choose.

Do keep posting - your tank doesn't sound like any fun right now and
we're happy to help out.


Another long-term option is to separate the males from the females - I
seem to remember that you have more than one tank...or return the
females to the LFS along with the excess fry (that way you don't need to
keep making multiple trips to get rid of the fry).

I don't seem to have too much of a problem with my livebearers (Platys
and Mollies) over populating the tank(s) but I'm pretty sure these are
kept in check by the other fish (and I don't have an Oscar)...

The Mbunas are a different kettle of fish - they are getting an
additional Fluval 304 at the weekend (got one hanging around in the
garage). But even so I'm pretty sure that the numbers are kept in check
by the Plec.

Right now your options are limited because of the nitrites (and I guess
ammonia) in the water - you can't go adding another fish in there right
now. Altum may also be spot on that it is in fact a guppy specific
disease - whenever I've had a hiccup on the water quality front it is
all the fish that are affected not just one or two.

Good luck
Gill

"Daniel Morrow" wrote in message
...
Bottom posted.
Eric wrote:
On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 19:17:05 -0600, NetMax wrote
(in article ):



It's a bad idea to move any fish into a tank which is having
problems. Also it can be a bad idea to buy function fish, as the
function is quickly addressed leaving you with a fish to cater to.
This is never so obvious as when adding an Oscar to a Guppy tank.
If you want an Oscar, then buy an Oscar. If you have too many
Guppies, bag them all to the LFS. An Oscar will not stop with the
small Guppies, and will basically wipe the population out. If you
want a carnivorous predator, Bettas, medium Gouramis and medium
sized cichlids will fill that role, but you don't have a healthy
tank to put them in. jmo, best wishes with that.


"Function fish"! I love that term. I wish I had heard it when I was
working as a fish professional. I couldn't believe how many people
wanted to add a fish to a tank with problems in order to solve that
problem. A bit like the old lady who swallowed the fly.

Once the guppies from the original post are thinned out and a few
partials have been done, I'd recommend a couple of black skirt tetras
to keep the babies in check. Or better still, net a few Gambusia from
the local ditch and witness the livebearer on livebearer mayhem.
Gambusia are the toughest fish under two inches.

-E

I didn't invent or come up with the phrase "function fish", I have seen it
used on this newsgroup before. Quite frankly I would rather have one 55
gallon tank with my two silver dollars and 1 oscar than the silver dollars
with a couple mountain minnows (like now) and tons of fancy guppies with a
guppy dieing every other day. Come on guys - even fancy guppies are
supposed
to live at least a year except for the high nitrates and nitrites. Could
my
problem be not enough oxygen? I don't have decent transportation so I
can't
get to the lfs 14 miles away one way to drop off bags of fancy guppies
every
2 weeks to 1 month, I've done it before and I just don't have that much
time
on my hands anymore. I doubt the bus system drivers would let me carry on
bags of fish each trip and I sure can't get to the store often enough to
keep buying rubbermaid tubs which the bus driver wouldn't allow anyways.
I'm
sorry if I sound negative but when people chastise me after acting on
assumptions and incorrect information even after I have already said the
correct/accurate information here before it really saddens me - don't you
guys know me by now? I guess not. I am sorry I even asked about this
subject, geez, [goes away sulking]. :-(


I may be confused but if you want guppies but dont want them having babies
and over running the tank, get rid of females, then you will have no more
babies
Nikki