Odd Cloudy Water Question/Problem

First, sorry for the multiple cross-posts.
Second, sorry about the length.

I have a 55g Tall homemade tank that has about 3" of Laterite and
gravel mix. Tank has like 3-4 WPG and is moderately planted. About 9
months ago, with 2 angels and a pleco in the tank, the water turned
greyish-cloudy. Water changes did nothing. Nor did not feeding or
fertilizing or removing light, at least at first. After about 2 weeks
without light and food, the cloudiness cleared up. As soon as I fed
them again, it came back, full force. Things happened and I didn't
get to work with it until last month. Turns out one angel died. So
did several plants. I drained all but about 4" from the gravel down,
and removed the false rocks to be cleaned. I did leave some rocks
that I got from my back yard in there tho. After refilling, the water
was clear for about 3 days. By the third day it was slightly cloudy
again. Since, I can do a 25% - 40% water change at night and by the
next night it is cloudy again. Water has been tested several times by
the LFS and everything checks out fine. Added plants and filtration
and those are doing fine, I actually even get pearling after I water
change and the plants get light. Fish seem fine, and I had to add a
clown loach and a few tetras due to some other issues with another
tank. I have tried Formalin, at the recommendation of a friend. Also
tried changing food, removing the "real" rocks from my yard, and
Mardel's Clear Water. Nothing seems to work. Right now the only
problem is that the tank is cloudy when you want to watch the fish,
but I don't want to get any more fish until I get this sorted out.
ANY help is appreciated.

I thought it might be an algae bloom and asked to borrow my friends
diatom filter, but he doesn't think it's algae since it re-appears
overnight. I also changed to 2 Penguin Bio-Wheel 170's thinking it
might be bacterial and they needed a home.

Last time LFS checked water I had no Nitrates, Nitrites, barely any
Ammonia, proper salinity(if not a bit low, according to them), and
good KH and GH.

Thanks in advance.

T.

"Tom Hale" wrote in message
om...
First, sorry for the multiple cross-posts.
Second, sorry about the length.

I have a 55g Tall homemade tank that has about 3" of Laterite and

Anecdotal, but I set up a couple of tanks with Laterite/gravel mix and
was constantly having problems with keeping the water clear. My solution
was eventually to dump the Laterite/gravel and restart the tank with only
a new bag of the same gravel used before. Worked for me. Now when I
want to toy with specialty gravel, I use Flourite.

NetMax

snip
Thanks in advance.

T.

I have a 55g Tall homemade tank that has about 3" of Laterite and
gravel mix. Tank has like 3-4 WPG and is moderately planted. About 9
months ago, with 2 angels and a pleco in the tank, the water turned
greyish-cloudy. Water changes did nothing. Nor did not feeding or
fertilizing or removing light, at least at first. After about 2 weeks
without light and food, the cloudiness cleared up. As soon as I fed
them again, it came back, full force. Things happened and I didn't
get to work with it until last month. Turns out one angel died. So
did several plants. I drained all but about 4" from the gravel down,
and removed the false rocks to be cleaned. I did leave some rocks
that I got from my back yard in there tho. After refilling, the water
was clear for about 3 days. By the third day it was slightly cloudy
again. Since, I can do a 25% - 40% water change at night and by the
next night it is cloudy again. Water has been tested several times by
the LFS and everything checks out fine. Added plants and filtration
and those are doing fine, I actually even get pearling after I water
change and the plants get light. Fish seem fine, and I had to add a
clown loach and a few tetras due to some other issues with another
tank. I have tried Formalin, at the recommendation of a friend. Also
tried changing food, removing the "real" rocks from my yard, and
Mardel's Clear Water. Nothing seems to work. Right now the only
problem is that the tank is cloudy when you want to watch the fish,
but I don't want to get any more fish until I get this sorted out.
ANY help is appreciated.

I thought it might be an algae bloom and asked to borrow my friends
diatom filter, but he doesn't think it's algae since it re-appears
overnight. I also changed to 2 Penguin Bio-Wheel 170's thinking it
might be bacterial and they needed a home.

Last time LFS checked water I had no Nitrates, Nitrites, barely any
Ammonia, proper salinity(if not a bit low, according to them), and
good KH and GH.

Thanks in advance.

T.

You're not the first person who has come here with that complaint, and to my
recollection, they were all linked back to the use of Laterite...

Suggestion: regular gravel and flourite, you'll have cloudiness for a few
days, but nothing like you're talking about... it's the kind that won't come
back unless you turn the gravel/flourite over once a day....

--
RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
streetfighter!!!

==========================
2003 TRX450ES
1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
1987 TRX250R (sold)
1987 CBR600 Hurricane (sold)
1987 VFR700 Interceptor (sold)
1995 TRX300ex (sold)
2000 CBR600F4 silver/red (sold) *sniff*sniff*
'98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
==========================

"RedForeman ©®" wrote in message
You're not the first person who has come here with that complaint, and to my
recollection, they were all linked back to the use of Laterite...

Suggestion: regular gravel and flourite, you'll have cloudiness for a few
days, but nothing like you're talking about... it's the kind that won't come
back unless you turn the gravel/flourite over once a day....


Ok, Stupid question time.

#1: How much flourite per gallon if I wanna use it with gravel? (Tank
is a 55g tall)

#2: Is there an easy way to remove the Laterite from the current
gravel?

#3: Could it be the amount of water movement/filtration I have? A
friend of mine has never had this problem, and he is the one who
recommended Laterite to me, he uses it without problem.

#4: Does anyone else use Laterite without this problem?

Thanks for all the help.

T.

"Tom Hale" wrote in message
om...
"RedForeman ©®" wrote in message
You're not the first person who has come here with that complaint,
and to my
recollection, they were all linked back to the use of Laterite...

Suggestion: regular gravel and flourite, you'll have cloudiness for a
few
days, but nothing like you're talking about... it's the kind that
won't come
back unless you turn the gravel/flourite over once a day....


Ok, Stupid question time.

#1: How much flourite per gallon if I wanna use it with gravel? (Tank
is a 55g tall)

They would like you to use 100% flourite, but many people do a 50/50
split. Why not just use gravel?

#2: Is there an easy way to remove the Laterite from the current
gravel?

It would depend on your gravel size. In my younger days when I had less
money and more patience, I'd sieve different size substrates apart (sunny
day, sitting in the driveway with a cold beer). The closer they are in
size, the more impossible it becomes to seperate them.

You might find that blasting it with water, the laterite is lighter and
pours over the edge (tank outside on your driveway).

#3: Could it be the amount of water movement/filtration I have? A
friend of mine has never had this problem, and he is the one who
recommended Laterite to me, he uses it without problem.

Nope. In my case, I had very little water movement in either of my
affected tanks.

#4: Does anyone else use Laterite without this problem?

I hope so, it's been around for ages. Maybe it's related to the amount
of bio-film you can accumulate around the laterite grains, so low
fish-load tanks would take longer than higher fish load tanks to
stabilze? (I'm just guessing).

r.a.f.p. should be the best place for experienced advice on this stuff.

NetMax

Thanks for all the help.

T.

Ok, Stupid question time.

There are no stupid questions, just silly answers...

#1: How much flourite per gallon if I wanna use it with gravel? (Tank
is a 55g tall)

I used 4 bags of flourite and 2 bags of similar colored gravel, near the
same size. I'd guess 6 bags for your 55, but I agree with NetMax, 90% of
people mix it, to make it go farther...

#2: Is there an easy way to remove the Laterite from the current
gravel?

Maybe just chunk it... Sorry about the cost... but hold on a minute....

#3: Could it be the amount of water movement/filtration I have? A
friend of mine has never had this problem, and he is the one who
recommended Laterite to me, he uses it without problem.

If you have alot, I mean ALOT of movement, then you're really just stirring
it up yourself... How about running your HOB filter, ONLY.... give it a day
or so to settle down... See what happens... alot of it IS trial and error...
It is totally possible you are pushing too much water around and the
laterite can't settle down enough, allowing it to become suspended inthe
water column...

#4: Does anyone else use Laterite without this problem?

I've only and always used Flourite... I love the look of laterite, but I
started to use it in a 10g, and ended up taking it back, it was too light,
like potting soil... Just didn't like it.. I got black onyx sand instead...

--
RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
streetfighter!!!

==========================
2003 TRX450ES
1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
1987 TRX250R (sold)
1987 CBR600 Hurricane (sold)
1987 VFR700 Interceptor (sold)
1995 TRX300ex (sold)
2000 CBR600F4 silver/red (sold) *sniff*sniff*
'98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
==========================
ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
"By US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/printer
meets the definition of a telephone fax machine. By Sec.227(b)(1)(C),
it is unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement to such equipment.
By Sec.227(b)(3)(C), a violation of the aforementioned Section is
punishable by action to recover actual monetary loss, or $500,
whichever is greater, for each violation."

If you do send me unsolicited e-mail I will proof-read it at a rate
of $100 per hour (4 hour minimum).

"RedForeman ©®" wrote in message
...
Ok, Stupid question time.

There are no stupid questions, just silly answers...

#1: How much flourite per gallon if I wanna use it with gravel? (Tank
is a 55g tall)

I used 4 bags of flourite and 2 bags of similar colored gravel, near
the
same size. I'd guess 6 bags for your 55, but I agree with NetMax, 90%
of
people mix it, to make it go farther...

#2: Is there an easy way to remove the Laterite from the current
gravel?

Maybe just chunk it... Sorry about the cost... but hold on a minute....

#3: Could it be the amount of water movement/filtration I have? A
friend of mine has never had this problem, and he is the one who
recommended Laterite to me, he uses it without problem.

If you have alot, I mean ALOT of movement, then you're really just
stirring
it up yourself... How about running your HOB filter, ONLY.... give it a
day
or so to settle down... See what happens... alot of it IS trial and
error...
It is totally possible you are pushing too much water around and the
laterite can't settle down enough, allowing it to become suspended
inthe
water column...

That's a good point. Whenever I use sand as a substrate, I turn off all
pumps and filters for a couple if days, and let the particulates settle
to the bottom. This way only the uppermost layer is as volatile to
return to the water column, and this layer tends to get a bit of a slime
coat on it, helping keep it down.

Another option is to pour in a flocculent, and use some fine disposable
floss in your filter for a few days. I think RedForeman ©® is on the
right track in trying to get your conditions to where the filters can
keep the water clean. It's worth a few trys before you tear it apart.

NetMax

#4: Does anyone else use Laterite without this problem?

I've only and always used Flourite... I love the look of laterite, but
I
started to use it in a 10g, and ended up taking it back, it was too
light,
like potting soil... Just didn't like it.. I got black onyx sand
instead...

--
RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
streetfighter!!!

==========================
2003 TRX450ES
1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
1987 TRX250R (sold)
1987 CBR600 Hurricane (sold)
1987 VFR700 Interceptor (sold)
1995 TRX300ex (sold)
2000 CBR600F4 silver/red (sold) *sniff*sniff*
'98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
==========================
ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
"By US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/printer
meets the definition of a telephone fax machine. By Sec.227(b)(1)(C),
it is unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement to such equipment.
By Sec.227(b)(3)(C), a violation of the aforementioned Section is
punishable by action to recover actual monetary loss, or $500,
whichever is greater, for each violation."

If you do send me unsolicited e-mail I will proof-read it at a rate
of $100 per hour (4 hour minimum).

Netmax, I think you are right, you have to give the new substrate time to
get covered in biofilm, this will bind things a bit. The OP must just be
patient.
--
**So long, and thanks for all the fish!**


"NetMax" wrote in message
...

"RedForeman ©®" wrote in message
...
Ok, Stupid question time.

There are no stupid questions, just silly answers...

#1: How much flourite per gallon if I wanna use it with gravel? (Tank
is a 55g tall)

I used 4 bags of flourite and 2 bags of similar colored gravel, near
the
same size. I'd guess 6 bags for your 55, but I agree with NetMax, 90%
of
people mix it, to make it go farther...

#2: Is there an easy way to remove the Laterite from the current
gravel?

Maybe just chunk it... Sorry about the cost... but hold on a minute....

#3: Could it be the amount of water movement/filtration I have? A
friend of mine has never had this problem, and he is the one who
recommended Laterite to me, he uses it without problem.

If you have alot, I mean ALOT of movement, then you're really just
stirring
it up yourself... How about running your HOB filter, ONLY.... give it a
day
or so to settle down... See what happens... alot of it IS trial and
error...
It is totally possible you are pushing too much water around and the
laterite can't settle down enough, allowing it to become suspended
inthe
water column...

That's a good point. Whenever I use sand as a substrate, I turn off all
pumps and filters for a couple if days, and let the particulates settle
to the bottom. This way only the uppermost layer is as volatile to
return to the water column, and this layer tends to get a bit of a slime
coat on it, helping keep it down.

Another option is to pour in a flocculent, and use some fine disposable
floss in your filter for a few days. I think RedForeman ©® is on the
right track in trying to get your conditions to where the filters can
keep the water clean. It's worth a few trys before you tear it apart.

NetMax

#4: Does anyone else use Laterite without this problem?

I've only and always used Flourite... I love the look of laterite, but
I
started to use it in a 10g, and ended up taking it back, it was too
light,
like potting soil... Just didn't like it.. I got black onyx sand
instead...

--
RedForeman ©® future fabricator and creator of a ratbike
streetfighter!!!

==========================
2003 TRX450ES
1992 TRX-350 XX (For Sale)
1987 TRX250R (sold)
1987 CBR600 Hurricane (sold)
1987 VFR700 Interceptor (sold)
1995 TRX300ex (sold)
2000 CBR600F4 silver/red (sold) *sniff*sniff*
'98 Tacoma Ext Cab 4X4 Lifted....
==========================
ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸¸¸,ø¤° `°¤ø,¸¸,ø¤°`°¤ø
"By US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/printer
meets the definition of a telephone fax machine. By Sec.227(b)(1)(C),
it is unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement to such equipment.
By Sec.227(b)(3)(C), a violation of the aforementioned Section is
punishable by action to recover actual monetary loss, or $500,
whichever is greater, for each violation."

If you do send me unsolicited e-mail I will proof-read it at a rate
of $100 per hour (4 hour minimum).