Corals and Anemones compatability

Hello, I'M A NEWBIE on sal****er tanks. I have a 46G bowtank successfully
running on a canister filter and a Prizm skimmer.
My fish are 1 clown, 1 coral beauty, 1 copper band tang, 1 blue tang, 2
stripe damsels, 1 purple/straberry, 1 mandarin dragon and 1 horse. 5 crabs,
1 fire shrimp and 1cleaner shrimp. I try to get small sizes to have more
variety.


I have the sand and the live rock neccesary. My lighting is not the greatest
1 50/50 actinic bulb, 30W.

I added 3 anemones (bubletip) which work great with my clownfish.

I just got 7 pieces of coral.

I read sometimes anemones and coral might not be compatible, and frankly I
don't want to have any loses.
Can I keep a balance in my tank?

Any input on that?

TIA

Ruben

Wow ! Slow down !

You've made 100 mistakes already.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



RubenD wrote on 6/23/2006 11:46 PM:
Hello, I'M A NEWBIE on sal****er tanks. I have a 46G bowtank successfully
running on a canister filter and a Prizm skimmer.
My fish are 1 clown, 1 coral beauty, 1 copper band tang, 1 blue tang, 2
stripe damsels, 1 purple/straberry, 1 mandarin dragon and 1 horse. 5 crabs,
1 fire shrimp and 1cleaner shrimp. I try to get small sizes to have more
variety.


I have the sand and the live rock neccesary. My lighting is not the greatest
1 50/50 actinic bulb, 30W.

I added 3 anemones (bubletip) which work great with my clownfish.

I just got 7 pieces of coral.

I read sometimes anemones and coral might not be compatible, and frankly I
don't want to have any loses.
Can I keep a balance in my tank?

Any input on that?

TIA

Ruben

I think what Wayne is trying to say is it is only a matter of time before
you lose just about everything.

Is this a new tank ?

1. Sounds like it's over populated.
2. Lighting sound inadequate especially for your Anemones
3. Canister Filter....no comment
4 Food supply for Mandarin dragon
5. You housed a sea horse with semi aggressive fish., how's it going to get
food ?

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but it's best we don't beat around the bush
here.
Who sold you all of this stuff ?

Chris




"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message
...
Wow ! Slow down !

You've made 100 mistakes already.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



RubenD wrote on 6/23/2006 11:46 PM:
Hello, I'M A NEWBIE on sal****er tanks. I have a 46G bowtank
successfully
running on a canister filter and a Prizm skimmer.
My fish are 1 clown, 1 coral beauty, 1 copper band tang, 1 blue tang, 2
stripe damsels, 1 purple/straberry, 1 mandarin dragon and 1 horse. 5
crabs,
1 fire shrimp and 1cleaner shrimp. I try to get small sizes to have more
variety.


I have the sand and the live rock neccesary. My lighting is not the
greatest
1 50/50 actinic bulb, 30W.

I added 3 anemones (bubletip) which work great with my clownfish.

I just got 7 pieces of coral.

I read sometimes anemones and coral might not be compatible, and frankly
I
don't want to have any loses.
Can I keep a balance in my tank?

Any input on that?

TIA

Ruben

"RubenD" wrote on Sat, 24 Jun 2006:
Hello, I'M A NEWBIE on sal****er tanks. I have a 46G bowtank successfully
running on a canister filter and a Prizm skimmer.
I have the sand and the live rock neccesary. My lighting is not the greatest
1 50/50 actinic bulb, 30W.

My fish are 1 clown, 1 coral beauty, 1 blue tang, 2
stripe damsels, 1 purple/straberry
1 fire shrimp and 1cleaner shrimp.
5 crabs, I try to get small sizes to have more variety.

These are all easy species, but you have quite a few for that size tank

1 copper band tang

Copper band butterfly? Very different from a tang, and somewhat difficult.

1 mandarin dragon

How old is your tank? Mandarins probably only eat live copepods/amphipods
from your live rock, and in 46G you have the bare minimum, even if the tank
is mature. This fish will likely starve to death in your tank.

I added 3 anemones (bubletip) which work great with my clownfish.

But your lighting is very, very poor, which is a big danger for the health
of your anemones. To even have a chance, you're going to need to hand feed
them regularly. But your tank is not a good setup to keep anemones.

and 1 horse.

Seahorse?

Terrible plan. Likely to die soon from one of two causes:

1. Starvation, because they are both very picky eaters (mostly only
mysis shrimp, or copepods/amphipods from your live rock); and also very
slow eaters (so all your fast fish will devour all the food before the
seahorse ever gets a chance to eat.

2. As prey from the anemones. Seahorses are poor swimmers, and sticky
anemones are good at (eventually) catching slow things in the water.
Regular fish might get occasionally stung, but they'll easily slip away.
Seahorses generally become caught and devoured by sea anemones before too
long.

I just got 7 pieces of coral.

Species? Many of them also require intense lighting, which you don't have.

I read sometimes anemones and coral might not be compatible, and frankly I
don't want to have any loses.

You're right that this can be a problem, because anemones are able to move,
and they also have powerful stinging, so there's a reasonable chance they'll
eventually make their way around to where you have various corals and
"accidentally" kill at least part of the corals.

But you have bigger problems than that. Before you even need to worry about
compatibility between your species, you should realize that you probably don't
even have a tank which can support many of your livestock on their own.

Can I keep a balance in my tank?
Any input on that?

Not the way you've started, no.

-- Don
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
If a kid ever asks you how Santa Claus can live forever, I think a good answer
is that he drinks blood. -- Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handey [1999]

Don, my tank is about 5 months old.

Can I buy food for the mandarin? I was told it would eat from the left
overs in the sand.

I got small sizes fish, trying ot get more variety instead of a few bigger
fish.

I have a 10G tank with 30watts of fluorescent light which I might use for
the seahorse and perhaps move the damsels there and/or the mandarin goby.
Would a cascade filter be enough for that? What do you think?
I haven't done it because things can go wrong faster on a small tank.

What is the optimus number of fish for a 46G tank. These fishes are about
1"-2" long, except the copper which is about 3".

I asked about the coral and the anemones and I was told they can do with
that lighting as long it was a 50/50 actinic.
I think I got the low maintenance/cheapest kind. So far they look ok, all
open. I place them on the water current point which seems to please them.

Let me see what can I do about lighting.

How can they have anemones an coral together on the LFS, does it depend on
the size of the tank?

All the levels are good (ammonia, nitrite and nitrate) the only one that was
slightly low was the ph and I added one of those adjuster packages.
Something peculiar is that the specific gravity is being rock solid and I
haven't had to top off with water.
I even took a sample to the LFS and tested good. By the way, I started with
a package of salt from china, they recomended at the LFS.

I appreciate your time and the advise you're offering.

I look at your website and it's great. How many fish do you currently have?

Thanks,

Ruben



"Don Geddis" wrote in message
...
"RubenD" wrote on Sat, 24 Jun 2006:
Hello, I'M A NEWBIE on sal****er tanks. I have a 46G bowtank
successfully
running on a canister filter and a Prizm skimmer.
I have the sand and the live rock neccesary. My lighting is not the
greatest
1 50/50 actinic bulb, 30W.

My fish are 1 clown, 1 coral beauty, 1 blue tang, 2
stripe damsels, 1 purple/straberry
1 fire shrimp and 1cleaner shrimp.
5 crabs, I try to get small sizes to have more variety.

These are all easy species, but you have quite a few for that size tank

1 copper band tang

Copper band butterfly? Very different from a tang, and somewhat
difficult.

1 mandarin dragon

How old is your tank? Mandarins probably only eat live copepods/amphipods
from your live rock, and in 46G you have the bare minimum, even if the
tank
is mature. This fish will likely starve to death in your tank.

I added 3 anemones (bubletip) which work great with my clownfish.

But your lighting is very, very poor, which is a big danger for the health
of your anemones. To even have a chance, you're going to need to hand
feed
them regularly. But your tank is not a good setup to keep anemones.

and 1 horse.

Seahorse?

Terrible plan. Likely to die soon from one of two causes:

1. Starvation, because they are both very picky eaters (mostly only
mysis shrimp, or copepods/amphipods from your live rock); and also very
slow eaters (so all your fast fish will devour all the food before the
seahorse ever gets a chance to eat.

2. As prey from the anemones. Seahorses are poor swimmers, and sticky
anemones are good at (eventually) catching slow things in the water.
Regular fish might get occasionally stung, but they'll easily slip away.
Seahorses generally become caught and devoured by sea anemones before too
long.

I just got 7 pieces of coral.

Species? Many of them also require intense lighting, which you don't
have.

I read sometimes anemones and coral might not be compatible, and frankly
I
don't want to have any loses.

You're right that this can be a problem, because anemones are able to
move,
and they also have powerful stinging, so there's a reasonable chance
they'll
eventually make their way around to where you have various corals and
"accidentally" kill at least part of the corals.

But you have bigger problems than that. Before you even need to worry
about
compatibility between your species, you should realize that you probably
don't
even have a tank which can support many of your livestock on their own.

Can I keep a balance in my tank?
Any input on that?

Not the way you've started, no.

-- Don

__________________________________________________ __________________________
___
Don Geddis
http://reef.geddis.org/
If a kid ever asks you how Santa Claus can live forever, I think a good
answer
is that he drinks blood. -- Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handey [1999]

Ruben,

You don't have nearly enough light for your BTAs, and unless you plan to
increase the lighting substantially, I'd recommend you return them to
the local fish store now. Odds are the fish tanks in the store have
more lighting than your 46g, and typically LFS don't supply nearly
enough light to keep anemones alive long-term.

I had a BTA in a 29g for over 2 years using 165w of PC lighting. 30w of
Normal Output lighting isn't nearly enough, and the spectrum doesn't
matter whatsoever. Here's a good article about BTAs:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/in...ipanemones.htm

Mandarins need copepods to live, as that is their primary diet.
http://www.melevsreef.com/mandarin_care.html
You may try this: http://www.melevsreef.com/mandarin_diner.html

Corals and anemones can live in the same tank as long as they never
touch each other, and the water quality is stable. Your tank is only 5
months old, and wouldn't even be considered mature until 9 months or
more. A lot of things happen during the early months, and water quality
tends to waver all over the place. Hopefully you are doing steady
water changes, at least 25% per month.

Are you using RO or RO/DI water? Why are you not topping off the tank?
In 5 months, you've had zero evaporation?

Corals have specific requirements, based on the types you choose to
purchase. You'll need to know: Alkalinity, Calcium, Magnesium... What
you are testing for currently is what we test for when we cycle a tank.


Marc



RubenD wrote:
Don, my tank is about 5 months old.

Can I buy food for the mandarin? I was told it would eat from the left
overs in the sand.

I got small sizes fish, trying ot get more variety instead of a few bigger
fish.

I have a 10G tank with 30watts of fluorescent light which I might use for
the seahorse and perhaps move the damsels there and/or the mandarin goby.
Would a cascade filter be enough for that? What do you think?
I haven't done it because things can go wrong faster on a small tank.

What is the optimus number of fish for a 46G tank. These fishes are about
1"-2" long, except the copper which is about 3".

I asked about the coral and the anemones and I was told they can do with
that lighting as long it was a 50/50 actinic.
I think I got the low maintenance/cheapest kind. So far they look ok, all
open. I place them on the water current point which seems to please them.

Let me see what can I do about lighting.

How can they have anemones an coral together on the LFS, does it depend on
the size of the tank?

All the levels are good (ammonia, nitrite and nitrate) the only one that was
slightly low was the ph and I added one of those adjuster packages.
Something peculiar is that the specific gravity is being rock solid and I
haven't had to top off with water.
I even took a sample to the LFS and tested good. By the way, I started with
a package of salt from china, they recomended at the LFS.

I appreciate your time and the advise you're offering.

I look at your website and it's great. How many fish do you currently have?

Thanks,

Ruben

--
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
Reef Podcast: http://www.reefcast.com
Co-Author of: http://reefkeepingbasics.com/ml.htm

Ruben,

Your smaller fish will grow. So eventually your bio load
will be too much to handle. I will say one thing though
the damsels will probably fair fine. It takes a lot to kill one of them.
(personal experience) 1" of fish per 5 gallons of water.

Right now as I see it you have 3.5+4+6+9+4+4+4+4 = 38.5" of fish
That's enough fish for a 200 gallon tank.

Oh yeah I didn't add in the sea horse. Your bio load is or eventually will
be too high.
Do you have a 150 gallon tank you can use for a refugium ?

My recommendation:
Take all those fish back except for the damsels and get yourself some good
lighting.

"Marc Levenson" wrote in message
. com...
Ruben,

You don't have nearly enough light for your BTAs, and unless you plan to
increase the lighting substantially, I'd recommend you return them to the
local fish store now. Odds are the fish tanks in the store have more
lighting than your 46g, and typically LFS don't supply nearly enough light
to keep anemones alive long-term.

I had a BTA in a 29g for over 2 years using 165w of PC lighting. 30w of
Normal Output lighting isn't nearly enough, and the spectrum doesn't
matter whatsoever. Here's a good article about BTAs:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/in...ipanemones.htm

Mandarins need copepods to live, as that is their primary diet.
http://www.melevsreef.com/mandarin_care.html
You may try this: http://www.melevsreef.com/mandarin_diner.html

Corals and anemones can live in the same tank as long as they never touch
each other, and the water quality is stable. Your tank is only 5 months
old, and wouldn't even be considered mature until 9 months or more. A lot
of things happen during the early months, and water quality tends to waver
all over the place. Hopefully you are doing steady water changes, at
least 25% per month.

Are you using RO or RO/DI water? Why are you not topping off the tank? In
5 months, you've had zero evaporation?

Corals have specific requirements, based on the types you choose to
purchase. You'll need to know: Alkalinity, Calcium, Magnesium... What
you are testing for currently is what we test for when we cycle a tank.


Marc



RubenD wrote:
Don, my tank is about 5 months old.

Can I buy food for the mandarin? I was told it would eat from the left
overs in the sand.

I got small sizes fish, trying ot get more variety instead of a few
bigger
fish.

I have a 10G tank with 30watts of fluorescent light which I might use for
the seahorse and perhaps move the damsels there and/or the mandarin goby.
Would a cascade filter be enough for that? What do you think?
I haven't done it because things can go wrong faster on a small tank.

What is the optimus number of fish for a 46G tank. These fishes are
about
1"-2" long, except the copper which is about 3".

I asked about the coral and the anemones and I was told they can do with
that lighting as long it was a 50/50 actinic.
I think I got the low maintenance/cheapest kind. So far they look ok,
all
open. I place them on the water current point which seems to please
them.

Let me see what can I do about lighting.

How can they have anemones an coral together on the LFS, does it depend
on
the size of the tank?

All the levels are good (ammonia, nitrite and nitrate) the only one that
was
slightly low was the ph and I added one of those adjuster packages.
Something peculiar is that the specific gravity is being rock solid and I
haven't had to top off with water.
I even took a sample to the LFS and tested good. By the way, I started
with
a package of salt from china, they recomended at the LFS.

I appreciate your time and the advise you're offering.

I look at your website and it's great. How many fish do you currently
have?

Thanks,

Ruben

--
Business Page: http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com
Marine Hobbyist: http://www.melevsreef.com
Reef Podcast: http://www.reefcast.com
Co-Author of: http://reefkeepingbasics.com/ml.htm

[SNIP]

Ruben,
Please do yourself and your tank a favor. ALWAYS do your own research
before AND after asking ANY questions at the aquarium store. NEVER
impulse buy. The owner of the store wants to SELL you stuff, and very
likely doesn't know what he's talking about. The employees probably
know even less, have the owner on their back to SELL you stuff, there's
a high turnover rate among pet shop employees, and if they DO know what
they're talking about, they'll get hired away to a reef store or find a
better place to work. If you've been shopping at an actual marine reef
store, then whoever you talked to was stupid OR unscrupulous.
I don't have 1/4 of the knowledge the regulars on this board do, and I
can walk into just about any aquarium store (any of the ones near me,
anyway) and know more than most of the employees and possibly the owner
just from reading a couple articles on the internet beforehand. It's sad.
And yes, these lessons were learned by me the hard way. My first
sal****er tank was a 50 gal., and one of the first things I put in it
was a beautiful large brain coral. (I actually set up the tank because
I fell in love with that coral. Talk about impulse....) Had a single
Vitalite tube over it, with an UG filter run with an air pump. It
lasted, oh, maybe two months. That was 23 years ago! (Good GOD I'm
getting old...!) To give me a little credit, I don't know if sand
bed/live rock reefing had even been "discovered" yet....hehe
Get a good book or two that these guys recommend and READ it ASAP, and
get online at the reef forums before you go any further. Reefing or any
sal****er tanks are a wonderful, rewarding hobby, but not when you kill
your babies and waste a lot of money doing it.

Cindy

5 Months, you are in big trouble. Many wait almost a year and then start adding stuff
slooooowwwwwwwllllllllyyyy. You are like a AA Fuel Dragster. Need to be more like a 53
Chevy, with 6 cylinder with and rings

1 copper band tang( butterfly fish)
1 mandarin dragon
1 horse
__________________________
3, copepod, amphipod eaters (5 month tank) = 3 dead fish. The horse will go first,
then the Mandarin then the CBB.


3 anemones (bubletip)1--- 50/50 actinic bulb, 30W = 3 dead BTA's

46 gal tank, minus glass thickness, water displacement form LR, SB, fish, piping, etc. =
maybe 35 gal of actual water maybe + 5 months = allot of dead animals

Re-read and then re-read The Rocks last post and then do what he is telling you

Nobody has asked so I will

pH = ?

Ammonia = ?

Nitrite = ?

Nitrate = ?

and Marc's Alk, Ca++

If you got all this stuff and tank from the same LFS, get out gun and shoot owner :-)



--
Boomer

If You See Me Running You Better Catch-Up

Former US Army Bomb Technician (EOD)
Member; IABTI, NATEODA, WEODF, ISEE & IPS

Want to talk chemistry ? The Reef Chemistry Forum
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/index.php

Want to See More ! The Coral Realm
http://www.coralrealm.com

"RubenD" wrote on Sun, 25 Jun 2006:
Don, my tank is about 5 months old.

So, at least not brand new. But also not yet fully "mature". Whether you
have a stable population of copepods/amphipods (needed for food for some of
your fish) is hard to judge. You're on the border.

Can I buy food for the mandarin?

No, not really. They basically only eat live food. The easiest live food
to find at a LFS is brine shrimp, but they are very poor nutrition as food.
And even that would be a lot of work; you'd have to buy more live food every
few days.

I've never heard of anyone keeping a mandarin alive long term on food that
you add. (Perhaps someone got lucky and found one that would eat frozen
mysis, which is possible, but hugely unlikely.)

I was told it would eat from the left overs in the sand.

That's so misleading as to be false.

Mandarins are not scavengers, in the sense of snails, hermit crabs, etc.
Basically, all the food your fish don't eat falls somewhere in the tank.
Some scavengers eat the leftovers. Some hitchhikers (bristle worms, etc.)
eat the leftovers. Some bacteria in the live rock/sand slowly dissolves it.
Algae grows.

As a second-order effect, some of your cleanup crew (like snails) munches on
the growing algae. So most snails don't eat the leftover food directly, but
they eat the things that grow on the leftover food.

Mandarins aren't herbivores, so they don't eat the algae. However, there are
some tiny animals (copepods, amphipods) found in live sand/rock reef tanks.
These animals do eat leftover food and/or algae, and then the mandarins eat
them.

So, indirectly, you're kind of right. The problem is that you also need to
ensure that the population of 'pods is large enough, well fed, and survives
long-term. Otherwise the mandarin will run out of its only food source.

I got small sizes fish, trying ot get more variety instead of a few bigger
fish.

Yes, I do that too. Not a bad idea. But fish grow over time. You need a
plan for that.

I have a 10G tank with 30watts of fluorescent light which I might use for
the seahorse and perhaps move the damsels there and/or the mandarin goby.

The seahorse would do great in a 10G. Never mix the damsels and the seahorse:
damsels are some of the MOST aggressive fish, while seahorses are the most
docile. Seahorse would probably starve in a 10G if you put the damsels in
there also.

The mandarin is theoretically a good partner for seahorses. Both are quiet,
slow, shy, docile fish. The problem then is that the mandarin will starve
in a 10G tank. You can feed the seahorse (frozen mysis shrimp), but you
probably can't feed the mandarin. It needs a large enough tank, with enough
live rock, that its food ('pods) can grow in sufficient numbers to keep it
alive.

I haven't done it because things can go wrong faster on a small tank.

Yes, very true. You've made a whole lot of choices already, some of which
are potentially difficult.

The problem is that your current choices are almost certainly doomed to
failure. At least with the seahorse in a small tank, if you do a good job
with maintenance, there's a _chance_ that it will survive. In your current
tank, it's highly unlikely.

What is the optimus number of fish for a 46G tank. These fishes are about
1"-2" long, except the copper which is about 3".

1"/gallon of water is a rule-of-thumb, but that ballpark can vary depending
on what species you choose.

I asked about the coral and the anemones and I was told they can do with
that lighting as long it was a 50/50 actinic.

Spectrum isn't your issue. Watts is your issue. You don't have nearly
enough power to feed your anemones (via photosynthesis from the lighting).

I think I got the low maintenance/cheapest kind. So far they look ok, all
open. I place them on the water current point which seems to please them.

"So far they look ok" probably doesn't mean much. You clearly are a novice
at reefkeeping, and judging the health of anemones is notoriously difficult.

Yes, if they were really sickly, you might be able to tell. But anemones that
are starving often look "normal". They are capable of cannibalizing their own
flesh during periods of low nutrition. Net effect: they slowly shrink,
becoming smaller and smaller, and eventually wither away and die.

Let me see what can I do about lighting.

That would help the anemones a lot. And likely many of your corals.
You didn't tell us what coral species you have, but many of them are also
highly photosynthetic.

How can they have anemones an coral together on the LFS, does it depend on
the size of the tank?

A little on the size. Some on maintenance. If they move into battle, you can
take either the coral or the anemone and move it away.

But most is likely just that they have very high turnover in livestock. A
few corals here and there get a little damaged, but they're not keeping
anything long term, so it doesn't matter much.

I look at your website and it's great. How many fish do you currently have?

My web site shows my original tank, for the first few years. I've actually
upgraded within the last year to a much larger system (with sump, refugium,
etc.), but haven't had the time to update my website to show it off.

-- Don
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
While travelling near Tampa, Florida I passed the "Jehovah's Witness Assembly
Hall" and was struck by the fact that that must be where they make them.