Confused

When in the local pet shop, they have various types of cichlids, the one's
that are in the brackish water have more color to them and live in what I
think to be coral, then they have the regular freshwater fish, and finally
they have the freshwater cichlids that are in my tank:
Firemouths, Red Devils, Jaguars, Rusties, Convincts, Jack Dempsy, Green
Terrors, Jewel Fish etc..... Upon a closer look at the brackish tanks in
the store, I noticed that they had a few Rusties in there! I spoke with a
sales clerk and he said that most of the freshwater cichlids can adjust to
brackish conditions.

So now I"m confused, ( I thought that this was a freshwater cichlid forum
but we talk about fish that are not really freshwater quite often) I can't
figure out what conditions my fish need, I wonder if keeping them in
freshwater is incorrect and that perhpas I need to change to a brackish
tank. I'm trying to figure out whether there is a book that I can purchase
to educate myself on the differences in Cichlids, I would like to understand
their background and where they come from and was wondering if there is a
book like that on the market, or perhaps a website, an easy to understand
manual or something or if anyone with experince that is willing to assist me
would be much appreciated.

Mariana

The Cichlid Aquarium by Paul Loiselle is a great book for general cichlid
keeping, he covers a lot of great information in a pretty small and
inexpensive book.
VERY general rule of thumb is RiftLake and Central Americans need hard
alkaline water, West Africans and South Americans prefer slightly soft
acidic water.
Many keepers of Malawi and Tanganyikans put salt in the water, but I have
read from reliable sources that these lakes are not especially saline.
Except for the chromides, Etroplus, I don't belive any cichlids actually
need brackish water. It is true that many cichlids are very adaptable.
"Ciclasoma" urophthalmus often lives in seawater in Central America. For
the fish you listed, I personally don't see any advantage to using brackish
water, but fairly hard water would be good.
Paul

"GrlIntrpted" wrote in message
. net...

When in the local pet shop, they have various types of cichlids, the one's
that are in the brackish water have more color to them and live in what I
think to be coral, then they have the regular freshwater fish, and finally
they have the freshwater cichlids that are in my tank:
Firemouths, Red Devils, Jaguars, Rusties, Convincts, Jack Dempsy, Green
Terrors, Jewel Fish etc..... Upon a closer look at the brackish tanks in
the store, I noticed that they had a few Rusties in there! I spoke with a
sales clerk and he said that most of the freshwater cichlids can adjust to
brackish conditions.

So now I"m confused, ( I thought that this was a freshwater cichlid forum
but we talk about fish that are not really freshwater quite often) I can't
figure out what conditions my fish need, I wonder if keeping them in
freshwater is incorrect and that perhpas I need to change to a brackish
tank. I'm trying to figure out whether there is a book that I can
purchase
to educate myself on the differences in Cichlids, I would like to
understand
their background and where they come from and was wondering if there is a
book like that on the market, or perhaps a website, an easy to understand
manual or something or if anyone with experince that is willing to assist
me
would be much appreciated.

Mariana

I personally add salt to my tanks, but not to a level that could be
considered any where near brackish. Its a good preventative to have in the
tank as far as nicks and cuts etc are concerned and also helps prevent a lot
of disease outbreaks.
"Sarotherodon" wrote in message
...
The Cichlid Aquarium by Paul Loiselle is a great book for general cichlid
keeping, he covers a lot of great information in a pretty small and
inexpensive book.
VERY general rule of thumb is RiftLake and Central Americans need hard
alkaline water, West Africans and South Americans prefer slightly soft
acidic water.
Many keepers of Malawi and Tanganyikans put salt in the water, but I have
read from reliable sources that these lakes are not especially saline.
Except for the chromides, Etroplus, I don't belive any cichlids actually
need brackish water. It is true that many cichlids are very adaptable.
"Ciclasoma" urophthalmus often lives in seawater in Central America. For
the fish you listed, I personally don't see any advantage to using
brackish
water, but fairly hard water would be good.
Paul

"GrlIntrpted" wrote in message
. net...

When in the local pet shop, they have various types of cichlids, the
one's
that are in the brackish water have more color to them and live in what
I
think to be coral, then they have the regular freshwater fish, and
finally
they have the freshwater cichlids that are in my tank:
Firemouths, Red Devils, Jaguars, Rusties, Convincts, Jack Dempsy, Green
Terrors, Jewel Fish etc..... Upon a closer look at the brackish tanks
in
the store, I noticed that they had a few Rusties in there! I spoke with
a
sales clerk and he said that most of the freshwater cichlids can adjust
to
brackish conditions.

So now I"m confused, ( I thought that this was a freshwater cichlid
forum
but we talk about fish that are not really freshwater quite often) I
can't
figure out what conditions my fish need, I wonder if keeping them in
freshwater is incorrect and that perhpas I need to change to a brackish
tank. I'm trying to figure out whether there is a book that I can
purchase
to educate myself on the differences in Cichlids, I would like to
understand
their background and where they come from and was wondering if there is
a
book like that on the market, or perhaps a website, an easy to
understand
manual or something or if anyone with experince that is willing to
assist
me
would be much appreciated.

Mariana

I also used to add salt regularly to my tanks, but I quit doing it and
noticed no difference. I came to believe that the benefits of salt were
another bit of aquarium folklore. Most of the supposed benefits just don't
make sense biologically and no one seems to have any studies to support
them. Proper nutrition, clean tanks and quarantine of new fish , IMO, takes
care of most disease problems. Many Killi keepers claim that salt prevents
Oodinium, many also attribute Oodinium outbreaks to brine shrimp. But, just
as many claim that overall fish health and cleanliness prevents it! Can't
say who is right in every case, but I feed brine shrimp, use no salt and
have only once had Oodinium, in a new pair of fish. I think that certain
fish benefit from salt, but I'm not convinced it is a useful general
practice.
paul

"The Madd Hatter" wrote in message
ble.rogers.com...
I personally add salt to my tanks, but not to a level that could be
considered any where near brackish. Its a good preventative to have in the
tank as far as nicks and cuts etc are concerned and also helps prevent a
lot
of disease outbreaks.
"Sarotherodon" wrote in message
...
The Cichlid Aquarium by Paul Loiselle is a great book for general
cichlid
keeping, he covers a lot of great information in a pretty small and
inexpensive book.
VERY general rule of thumb is RiftLake and Central Americans need hard
alkaline water, West Africans and South Americans prefer slightly soft
acidic water.
Many keepers of Malawi and Tanganyikans put salt in the water, but I
have
read from reliable sources that these lakes are not especially saline.
Except for the chromides, Etroplus, I don't belive any cichlids actually
need brackish water. It is true that many cichlids are very adaptable.
"Ciclasoma" urophthalmus often lives in seawater in Central America.
For
the fish you listed, I personally don't see any advantage to using
brackish
water, but fairly hard water would be good.
Paul

I'll admit that a lot of people add it just cuz its "folklore", but it does
have scientific merit. It is known that the slimecoat on a fish body is its
primary barrier to a lot of outside infections or parasites. It is also
known that salt is an irritant that causes the fish to automatically excrete
more slimecoating. This is the reasoning behind the practice.. Its more of a
preventative measure then a cure, once an infection occurs.

"Sarotherodon" wrote in message
...
I also used to add salt regularly to my tanks, but I quit doing it and
noticed no difference. I came to believe that the benefits of salt were
another bit of aquarium folklore. Most of the supposed benefits just
don't
make sense biologically and no one seems to have any studies to support
them. Proper nutrition, clean tanks and quarantine of new fish , IMO,
takes
care of most disease problems. Many Killi keepers claim that salt
prevents
Oodinium, many also attribute Oodinium outbreaks to brine shrimp. But,
just
as many claim that overall fish health and cleanliness prevents it! Can't
say who is right in every case, but I feed brine shrimp, use no salt and
have only once had Oodinium, in a new pair of fish. I think that certain
fish benefit from salt, but I'm not convinced it is a useful general
practice.
paul

"The Madd Hatter" wrote in message
ble.rogers.com...
I personally add salt to my tanks, but not to a level that could be
considered any where near brackish. Its a good preventative to have in
the
tank as far as nicks and cuts etc are concerned and also helps prevent a
lot
of disease outbreaks.
"Sarotherodon" wrote in message
...
The Cichlid Aquarium by Paul Loiselle is a great book for general
cichlid
keeping, he covers a lot of great information in a pretty small and
inexpensive book.
VERY general rule of thumb is RiftLake and Central Americans need hard
alkaline water, West Africans and South Americans prefer slightly soft
acidic water.
Many keepers of Malawi and Tanganyikans put salt in the water, but I
have
read from reliable sources that these lakes are not especially saline.
Except for the chromides, Etroplus, I don't belive any cichlids
actually
need brackish water. It is true that many cichlids are very
adaptable.
"Ciclasoma" urophthalmus often lives in seawater in Central America.
For
the fish you listed, I personally don't see any advantage to using
brackish
water, but fairly hard water would be good.
Paul

"The Madd Hatter" wrote in message
le.rogers.com...
I'll admit that a lot of people add it just cuz its "folklore", but it
does
have scientific merit. It is known that the slimecoat on a fish body is
its
primary barrier to a lot of outside infections or parasites. It is also
known that salt is an irritant that causes the fish to automatically
excrete
more slimecoating. This is the reasoning behind the practice.. Its more of
a
preventative measure then a cure, once an infection occurs.

You're right, Madd. My statement was too broad. It just seems like many
people, fish stores included, push things like salt and "general tonic"
medications as necessary for successful fish keeping. Or they tell people
that adding salt mimics the water of the Rift Lakes-not really much NaCl in
them. I haven't noticed any difference since I quit using salt, but I now
keep many fewer tanks and have a much lower number of fish coming through
my
tanks. In general I think aquarists, especially beginners, fool around too
much with water chem, add to many things to
their tanks. Also, some meds are hazardous when combined with salt.
"Sarotherodon" wrote in message

actually, I don't think it has much scientific merit at all. In fact, it
goes against many of the principals of aquatic biology as we know them.

the statement that "salt helps fish regulate their osmotic balance" is
patently ridiculous! all fish are different in this regard, depending on
where they live. some species are native to "soft water/low dissolved
solids" habitats while others inhabit hard and alkaline biotopes with high
salt concentrations inherent in the water. the species inhabiting these
very different environments have developed metabolic processes which take
advantage of the specific chemistry of that water. to add salt in the
misguided attempt to "help regulate osmotic balance" may actually upset that
very balance you are erroneously trying to "help". your fish are much
better served by leaving them alone and allowing them to regulate their own
osmotic balance ... something they have been doing without your help for
thousands of years.

The idea that salt is a tonic for fish when it is kept in fish tanks at
moderate levels (~ 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons) needs to be taken with a
"grain of salt". If your fish are the most commonly kept community fish
such as tetras, corys, angels or even the rasboras and most anabantids,
these are fish largely from soft, acid, low-TDS (total dissolved solids)
waters. The average tap water in the U.S and Europe is at least moderately
hard and alkaline and is certainly not improved by increasing the "salt"
concentration ... that very thing in which our water already differs most
from the natural waters of these fish. Certainly many of these fish adapt
well to our local water conditions and I am an advocate of adapting
non-breeding fish to local conditions. This is far better for both fish and
keeper than constantly battling see-sawing water parameters. But,
acclimation to your tap water is one thing .... making your water worse than
it already is however, is quite another.

The prophylactic use of salt to avoid common pathogens and parasites of fish
by keeping some level of salt in the tank is also fraught with difficulty.
True, the use of salt, usually accompanied by increased temperature, is an
effective treatment for one of the most common ectoparasite which beginning
aquarists encounter ... Ichthyophthirius multifiliis, or Ich. However,
only the free-swimming form of this parasite is treatable. Neither the
fish-embedded growth phase, nor the encysted multiplication stage that rests
on or in the substrate is readily attacked by salt or any other medication.
Thus prophylactic treatment is useless as it makes little sense to treat a
non-infected tank on a chronic basis.

Further, any treatment for parasitic infestation is a "medication" and thus
the use of salt differs little from the use of any one of the other
available Ick medications available at any LFS. The biggest difference in
my opinion though, is that of all the medications available, salt is
probably the least effective by comparison.

Finally, stimulating the slime coat through the use of an "irritant" makes
no sense to me. fish make a slime coat naturally and need no help from an
irritant which while potentially stimulating mucous production, also creates
significant stress which actually weakens the immune response.


--
You're never too old to have a happy childhood.

liv2padl wrote:
actually, I don't think it has much scientific merit at all. In fact, it
goes against many of the principals of aquatic biology as we know them.

You forget one scientifically proven use for salt in fish: preventing
nitrite poisoning during cycling, particularly "brown blood disease". To
refresh your memory, nitrite can oxidate hemagoblin and create
methemoglobin. Methemoglobin is unable to transport oxygen. Too much
methemoglobin and the fish dies of suffocation. How is this mitigated? By
the Cl ions in salt (either NaCl or KCl). The Cl ions compete with the
nitrite ions for uptake by the gills and thus help prevent the creation of
methemogoblin by mitigating the uptake of nitrite. Thus you save your fish
from a nasty death via aphyxiation if you provide a little salt during the
nitrite spike of the cycle. I'm willing to bet this is one of the reasons
the use of a "prophylactic" level of salt took off, because less
scientific fish keepers noticed that salt tended to mitigate new tank
deaths without realizing why.