Swim bladder/float issues in 12 yo Common

I post every 2 years or so with a new/unidentifiable issue with my one
fish, but I read more often and I appreciate the advise from the
regulars.

Here's my situation: I have one 8-inch 12 yo common goldfish in 29
gallons. It's unheated, but we're in Southern California, so he
hovers around 70-74 degrees (a little warm for comfort, in my
opinion). Marineland Emperor 280 filter/bio-wheel and a very large
circular airstone; light gravel and artificial plants. Ammonia is 0,
trace amounts of nitrates and nitrites recently (maybe I just need a
new test kit). Algae builds up enough to require a good scraping on
the sides of the tank every 4 weeks or so (too warm!).

Over the past several months, he started resting on the bottom. When
feeding time came, we would instantly energize and shoot to the top to
eat, but it seemed obvious that he felt "heavy" and it was a chore.
I tried to address any water quality issues (even though testing was
not conclusive) by adding some Biozyme and upping the changes for a
while, but nothing happened. I also increased the frozen shrimp in
his diet (usually eats flakes) thinking it might help a swim bladder
problem, and I salt after every change.

A few days ago, he started swimming around like nothing had ever
happened (aside from a red mark on his belly from resting for so
long). But, now I see the beginning stages of "floating" problems,
e.g. it looks like his belly is going up first sometimes, and it seems
like a struggle to get to the bottom.

So, I tried to feed him some peas, which he usually only eats 1 or 2
of at a time (and stupidly gave him a small piece of bran). After
looking around online a bit, I think I'm going to try the enteritis
treatment and fast him for 4-5 days with consistent salt treatments.
Since he's the only thing in the tank, I was just going to leave him
there.

I'd appreciate anyone's thoughts on what I'm dealing with here.

Some photos to see how the fish himself is doing:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/furriness/2494719639/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/furriness/2494719119/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/furriness/2494719807/

Thanks,
Furry

I think you are on the right track.
no food for a week minimum
a single salt dip will cause purging, then a bit of salt 1Teas per 5 gallons
clean, clean, clean water. tub to tub if necessary to get the fish into clean water
keep the water temp steady, 75-78 is perfect for GF.
when you do start feeding, give ONLY wet seafood, chopped RAW shrimp, fish,
whatever... no grains. and feed in TINY amounts as GF are "grazers" that eat a
little bit at a time, but graze all day. DONT CLEAN THE ALGAE off all the walls of
the tank, only the front. algae gives the fish some soft stuff to eat. it also is
the equivalent of a "veggie filter" to the extent that is slurps up ammonia and gets
rid of nitrates. makes a healthier tank.
my dogs eat raw meaty bone diet. they make tiny poopies. I think if GF get natural
diet of small raw wet tiny things their digestion will work so much better and they
wont have big poops either. below is from my website.

http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/d...ing%20problems
Floating problems are complex. If it occurs only after feeding, see below.
Females full of eggs can have balance problems.
Dropping a fish can result in swim bladder damage.
Toxins can cause swim bladder problems.
Cranial kidney and floating
It can also be due to problems with regulation of the air bladder. This organ can be
damaged by medications and treatments before you even bought your fish. One is
"tranquilizers" put into the water when fish are shipped. The damage does not show
up right away.
OK.. here is the deal. Jo Ann and I been in discussion about floating and "swim
bladder" disease. I have never been able to get past the fact that the explanation
doesnt fit the observations.
The fish floats upside down.
The swim bladder is at the "top" of the fish under the back.
Necropsies of "floaters" show the swim bladder is full.
I can see where a fish that cannot submerge, or cant get off the bottom may have a
dysfunctional swim bladder, but it doesnt explain "upside down" I was reading in
Stoskopf (p. 127) "Gas-forming enteritis can mimic disease of the swim bladder. In
addition to the development of abnormal swimming postures, bulges from gas-filled
bowel can cause the clinician to misidentify the bowel as the swim bladder. "
Now THIS would explain a fish being upside down. The belly has a greater quantity of
gas than the swim bladder and the fish flips over. IN addition, I have seen this
"bulging" of sides of the fish and especially at the back of the fish leading to that
"dumpy" look. The fish is often curved, as if muscles on one side are not operating
(on the side that is bulging out) and the muscles of the side curved in seems to be
permanently contracted. Most likely is that the gas so fills up one side that it
pushes that side up and it is impossible for the fish to straighten out. Think of
those of us who get "gas" and how contorted we can be trying to find a position to
avoid the pain. In support of the pain theory, in those fish I have made little
weighted jackets for, the fish seemed to be in discomfort at the bottom of the tank.
Altho subtle in a tank, the pressure might also be painful. In fish with egg
binding, the eggs are often infected, and this could lead to gas formation as well,
also with the fish flipping over.

Ingrid

On Thu, 15 May 2008 12:18:56 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
It's unheated, but we're in Southern California, so he
hovers around 70-74 degrees (a little warm for comfort, in my
opinion). Marineland Emperor 280 filter/bio-wheel and a very large
circular airstone; light gravel and artificial plants. Ammonia is 0,
trace amounts of nitrates and nitrites recently (maybe I just need a
new test kit). Algae builds up enough to require a good scraping on
the sides of the tank every 4 weeks or so (too warm!).

Over the past several months, he started resting on the bottom. When
feeding time came, we would instantly energize and shoot to the top to
eat, but it seemed obvious that he felt "heavy" and it was a chore.
I tried to address any water quality issues (even though testing was
not conclusive) by adding some Biozyme and upping the changes for a
while, but nothing happened. I also increased the frozen shrimp in
his diet (usually eats flakes) thinking it might help a swim bladder
problem, and I salt after every change.

A few days ago, he started swimming around like nothing had ever
happened (aside from a red mark on his belly from resting for so
long). But, now I see the beginning stages of "floating" problems,
e.g. it looks like his belly is going up first sometimes, and it seems
like a struggle to get to the bottom.

So, I tried to feed him some peas, which he usually only eats 1 or 2
of at a time (and stupidly gave him a small piece of bran). After
looking around online a bit, I think I'm going to try the enteritis
treatment and fast him for 4-5 days with consistent salt treatments.
Since he's the only thing in the tank, I was just going to leave him
there.

I'd appreciate anyone's thoughts on what I'm dealing with here.

Some photos to see how the fish himself is doing:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/furriness/2494719639/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/furriness/2494719119/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/furriness/2494719807/

Thanks,
Furry

Thanks for the tips (I already have your website in my favorites!). I
know having some flora in the tank is good (I leave the algae in the
corners and on the filter intakes, etc), but I hadn't heard about
leaving it on the walls of the tank. I have ammonia well under
control, but I'll leave more algae anyway, he does like to suck at the
softer algae on the intakes.

When you say "raw" shrimp, I presume that the frozen brine shrimp I
get at the pet store is good?

On May 16, 8:14 am, wrote:
I think you are on the right track.
no food for a week minimum
a single salt dip will cause purging, then a bit of salt 1Teas per 5 gallons
clean, clean, clean water. tub to tub if necessary to get the fish into clean water
keep the water temp steady, 75-78 is perfect for GF.
when you do start feeding, give ONLY wet seafood, chopped RAW shrimp, fish,
whatever... no grains. and feed in TINY amounts as GF are "grazers" that eat a
little bit at a time, but graze all day. DONT CLEAN THE ALGAE off all the walls of
the tank, only the front. algae gives the fish some soft stuff to eat. it also is
the equivalent of a "veggie filter" to the extent that is slurps up ammonia and gets
rid of nitrates. makes a healthier tank.
my dogs eat raw meaty bone diet. they make tiny poopies. I think if GF get natural
diet of small raw wet tiny things their digestion will work so much better and they
wont have big poops either. below is from my website.

no.. I am talking about human quality but small, cheap, raw shrimp and chop em up.
feed small amounts. I am now completely convinced that most of the problems with GF
digestion and "floating" is due to feeding dry processed foods. Feeding the most
natural food for GF is best, and they eat zooplankton, like larval insects, worms,
snails, daphnia. It is just that they are very expensive to feed, altho a little
goes a long way.
http://www.certifiedaquascapecontractor.com/ponds.php
and this is especially true to for fancy GF. The reason I am not thrilled with
frozen whole "fish" food is how it is raised and that it may be imported from places
that dont care about contamination. by getting human quality food (like I do for our
dogs) I am have some guarantee the food is wholesome. Ingrid


On Sat, 17 May 2008 13:17:54 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
When you say "raw" shrimp, I presume that the frozen brine shrimp I
get at the pet store is good?