Watering the aquarium plants.

For a long time I have just been running my aquarium in order to keep
my fish happy and alive, where I have certainly been doing well enough
in recent years.

However, this posting is about my plants, which until now are just
those thing that grow in the tank. As since I am aiming to achieve
perfection from my tanks these days, then so have I been annoyed that
two of my three new plants have been dying on me.

In my unwise way I just purchased three random plants from my local
fish shop and expected them to live. And of course live plants are
ideal to use up some of the masses of Nitrate, where also many of my
fish of course expect some plants and rocks.

To begin with the Vallisneria Americana one is doing so great that it
is starting to take over the surface, which is why it will soon have a
happier home in the larger tank.

However, the couple of Myriophyllum Tuberculatum (red) ones have been
subject to a rapid death, where only their core sections are still
alive and subject to a little new growth.

I have another plant that I cannot identify that is in the middle and
is losing its lower leafs while is otherwise not looking too bad.

Since my tank has enough light, then my problem with my plant growing
must be my water. And so I began looking into what is wrong, which is
why I purchased a simple test kit.

Up until this point I had been (foolishly) suspecting that maybe lack
of Nitrate was the problem, where of course now I know that my regular
water changes are in fact to remove ever increasing Nitrate from my
very efficient Nitrate production system.

Anyway, after testing my aquarium water a few times, then my test
results are this...

pH = 7.8
KH = 15
GH = 20.5
NO2 = 0.01 mg/l
NO3 = 100 mg/l

I have also seen that NO2 levels drop to zero at night time, when I
guess the fish must have stopped pooping and all the NO2 has been
converted to NO3.

Two obvious problems with my aquarium water is that first of all the
pH level is a little high at 7.8, but I am not really concerned about
this, when plants should do well enough. However, it is clearly the
General Hardness (GH) that is posing the biggest problem to my plants.

After testing the aquarium water, then so did I test the tap water,
where the results are as such...

pH = 7.8
KH = 18
GH = 19
NO2 = 0
NO3 = 50 mg/l

So my GH problem is clearly coming out of the water supply that I used
to fill my tank with. This is not too surprising, when my water is
known to be subject to lime scale thanks to the local hills.

The extra GH increase in the tank I suspect may be due to my long ago
added garden rock, which is why I recently replaced it with an
artificial rock.

And so to improve my tank further I need to lower the General Hardness
to a region that is more acceptable to both plants and fish. That is
my first plan, where my backup plan was just to stock plants suitable
for my local water.

Since I consider that saving the Myriophyllum Tuberculatum is a
hopefully case, when my plant search rates them as "very difficult"
ones to grow anyway, then I have been seriously considering simply
disposing of them. Still, I will give them one last shot, to see if
they can improve in better water.

However, the problem with getting plants for my hard water is that I
think that most of the available choices look ugly, where the better
looking plants (like Myriophyllum Tuberculatum) all prefer a softer
water level.

So, softening my water is my key plan, when then my choice of plants
can be a lot more flexible.

To begin with simply standing this new water I see helps very little,
even if the water fresh from the tap has GH of 21+, where it has to
settle a little while for GH to drop below 20.

I was giving thoughts to making use of rain water, where this more
acid nature would not be too bad when combined with tap water, but
since I live in a large town, then this could introduce undesirable
pollutants as well.

Then while researching about how to lower my GH I came across one
idea, which is simply to boil the water first.

And so I simply tested the same water from the electric kettle that I
had just made a cup to tea with, where naturally I let it cool down a
lot first, where my test results are as follows...

pH = 7.2
KH = 5
GH = 8
NO2 = 0
NO3 = 50 mg/l

Well I thought that boiled water may have some effect, but seeing
these results was a total surprise. In case of some temporary
chemistry effect, then a few hours later I tested this same water
again (now totally cold) and got the same results.

What I believe is going on here is that when I simply boiled up some
water and poured it into a clean jug, then after a short time a thin
film of "something" appeared on the surface.

So clearly I had boiled this "something" out of it, where my cup of
tea had removed this from the surface before my second pouring
achieved the test results above.

And so boil, pour, wait a little while, then pour off this film of
"something" is my apparent recipe to perfect aquarium water.

However, since this kettle water was subject to multiple boilings and
pourings, then doing this just once may produce an intermediate
result.

Since I have just tested a single boil batch of water, which displayed
much lesser improvements, then clearly this water needs a lot of
boiling. I will have to do yet more testing I see.

Anyway, that first multiple boiled water testing made me a lot more
happy, when pH is closer to perfection (if there is such a thing),
where all the other values are within the range of what fish tank
water should be.

I am a little concerned about the lower KH (Carbonate Hardness) value,
when as seen above KH 18 from the tap turns into KA 15 in the tank,
where KA dropping to 2 in the tank would not be good.

Still, since I had problems accurately matching up this new lower KH
value to the colour chart, then I will have to watch this value
closely in my tank.

What has gone on with this boiled water I am not fully sure, which is
one reason why I am doing this posting, but if everything is as I see,
then I can just use ex-boiled water in my weekly water change.

My only other problem is to remove NO3 (Nitrate) from my tap water,
when the ideal level to avoid algae growth is below 25 mg/l, where I
am already getting 50 mg/l direct from the tap.

And as I now see this will easily rise to over 100 mg/l before my next
water change, which of course pushes it back down a bit.

Lucky I guess that my tap water does not have an algae problem (not
that I would notice anyway), when unlike in the US here in the UK we
do not have chlorine added.

Anyway, I am soon to start slowly improving my aquarium water using
this method over the next month or so, where I can only hope that
everything goes well.

As if I can really get the GH down, then plant perfection will soon
follow, even if I stick to the types rated in the easy growing level
for now.

I also got in some super concentrated plant food recently, which
should add everything that plants need except for Nitrate. What it has
got in it I do not have a clue (beyond iron), but it does say to
discontinue in case of an algae outbreak.

Sorry, but in my higher Nitrate water algae is just a question of
keeping it in check, where I am hoping that adding lots of plants can
at least keep me closer to the 50 mg/l level. Going below that I see
as next to impossible, when my two White Mollies have bred to make the
current seven White Mollies who like to eat and poop a lot.

I swear that I must be over feeding them, even if those hungry mouths
consume all the double daily feeding within a minute or two. Those
White Mollies are so pro-food that they even eat some of the algae,
but of course not enough to keep it in control.

Well I am just here to air my current thoughts as I work on improving
my aquarium (20 gallon) and slowly getting the two new aquariums (one
20 gallon and one 40 gallon) up and running.

I have been wondering if in my new 40 gallon tank I should add a layer
of peat under the gravel (and a small sand section), with a layer of
protection between the two of course. As that could help the plants
further (the aquarium guides hardly mention this), but I am worried
about the effects this would have on the water.

Anyway, if you fancy commenting on any section, then just snip and
quote as you please. I am now off to give lots of water a heavy
boiling, which I am sure will achieve serious water improvement.

Cardman.
http://www.cardman.com
http://www.cardman.co.uk

So how do you know you have enough light? Generally the lights that come
with aquariums only have enough light for relatively low light plants. In
my experience, Myriophyllum requires fairly bright lighting, perhaps 3 watts
per gallon or more? So I would either look into getting more light or
replace it with other low light requiring plants like: Java fern, java
moss, anubias, etc.

--
Bob Alston

bobalston9 AT aol DOT com
"Cardman" wrote in message
ws.com...

For a long time I have just been running my aquarium in order to keep
my fish happy and alive, where I have certainly been doing well enough
in recent years.

However, this posting is about my plants, which until now are just
those thing that grow in the tank. As since I am aiming to achieve
perfection from my tanks these days, then so have I been annoyed that
two of my three new plants have been dying on me.

In my unwise way I just purchased three random plants from my local
fish shop and expected them to live. And of course live plants are
ideal to use up some of the masses of Nitrate, where also many of my
fish of course expect some plants and rocks.

To begin with the Vallisneria Americana one is doing so great that it
is starting to take over the surface, which is why it will soon have a
happier home in the larger tank.

However, the couple of Myriophyllum Tuberculatum (red) ones have been
subject to a rapid death, where only their core sections are still
alive and subject to a little new growth.

I have another plant that I cannot identify that is in the middle and
is losing its lower leafs while is otherwise not looking too bad.

Since my tank has enough light, then my problem with my plant growing
must be my water. And so I began looking into what is wrong, which is
why I purchased a simple test kit.

Up until this point I had been (foolishly) suspecting that maybe lack
of Nitrate was the problem, where of course now I know that my regular
water changes are in fact to remove ever increasing Nitrate from my
very efficient Nitrate production system.

Anyway, after testing my aquarium water a few times, then my test
results are this...

pH = 7.8
KH = 15
GH = 20.5
NO2 = 0.01 mg/l
NO3 = 100 mg/l

I have also seen that NO2 levels drop to zero at night time, when I
guess the fish must have stopped pooping and all the NO2 has been
converted to NO3.

Two obvious problems with my aquarium water is that first of all the
pH level is a little high at 7.8, but I am not really concerned about
this, when plants should do well enough. However, it is clearly the
General Hardness (GH) that is posing the biggest problem to my plants.

After testing the aquarium water, then so did I test the tap water,
where the results are as such...

pH = 7.8
KH = 18
GH = 19
NO2 = 0
NO3 = 50 mg/l

So my GH problem is clearly coming out of the water supply that I used
to fill my tank with. This is not too surprising, when my water is
known to be subject to lime scale thanks to the local hills.

The extra GH increase in the tank I suspect may be due to my long ago
added garden rock, which is why I recently replaced it with an
artificial rock.

And so to improve my tank further I need to lower the General Hardness
to a region that is more acceptable to both plants and fish. That is
my first plan, where my backup plan was just to stock plants suitable
for my local water.

Since I consider that saving the Myriophyllum Tuberculatum is a
hopefully case, when my plant search rates them as "very difficult"
ones to grow anyway, then I have been seriously considering simply
disposing of them. Still, I will give them one last shot, to see if
they can improve in better water.

However, the problem with getting plants for my hard water is that I
think that most of the available choices look ugly, where the better
looking plants (like Myriophyllum Tuberculatum) all prefer a softer
water level.

So, softening my water is my key plan, when then my choice of plants
can be a lot more flexible.

To begin with simply standing this new water I see helps very little,
even if the water fresh from the tap has GH of 21+, where it has to
settle a little while for GH to drop below 20.

I was giving thoughts to making use of rain water, where this more
acid nature would not be too bad when combined with tap water, but
since I live in a large town, then this could introduce undesirable
pollutants as well.

Then while researching about how to lower my GH I came across one
idea, which is simply to boil the water first.

And so I simply tested the same water from the electric kettle that I
had just made a cup to tea with, where naturally I let it cool down a
lot first, where my test results are as follows...

pH = 7.2
KH = 5
GH = 8
NO2 = 0
NO3 = 50 mg/l

Well I thought that boiled water may have some effect, but seeing
these results was a total surprise. In case of some temporary
chemistry effect, then a few hours later I tested this same water
again (now totally cold) and got the same results.

What I believe is going on here is that when I simply boiled up some
water and poured it into a clean jug, then after a short time a thin
film of "something" appeared on the surface.

So clearly I had boiled this "something" out of it, where my cup of
tea had removed this from the surface before my second pouring
achieved the test results above.

And so boil, pour, wait a little while, then pour off this film of
"something" is my apparent recipe to perfect aquarium water.

However, since this kettle water was subject to multiple boilings and
pourings, then doing this just once may produce an intermediate
result.

Since I have just tested a single boil batch of water, which displayed
much lesser improvements, then clearly this water needs a lot of
boiling. I will have to do yet more testing I see.

Anyway, that first multiple boiled water testing made me a lot more
happy, when pH is closer to perfection (if there is such a thing),
where all the other values are within the range of what fish tank
water should be.

I am a little concerned about the lower KH (Carbonate Hardness) value,
when as seen above KH 18 from the tap turns into KA 15 in the tank,
where KA dropping to 2 in the tank would not be good.

Still, since I had problems accurately matching up this new lower KH
value to the colour chart, then I will have to watch this value
closely in my tank.

What has gone on with this boiled water I am not fully sure, which is
one reason why I am doing this posting, but if everything is as I see,
then I can just use ex-boiled water in my weekly water change.

My only other problem is to remove NO3 (Nitrate) from my tap water,
when the ideal level to avoid algae growth is below 25 mg/l, where I
am already getting 50 mg/l direct from the tap.

And as I now see this will easily rise to over 100 mg/l before my next
water change, which of course pushes it back down a bit.

Lucky I guess that my tap water does not have an algae problem (not
that I would notice anyway), when unlike in the US here in the UK we
do not have chlorine added.

Anyway, I am soon to start slowly improving my aquarium water using
this method over the next month or so, where I can only hope that
everything goes well.

As if I can really get the GH down, then plant perfection will soon
follow, even if I stick to the types rated in the easy growing level
for now.

I also got in some super concentrated plant food recently, which
should add everything that plants need except for Nitrate. What it has
got in it I do not have a clue (beyond iron), but it does say to
discontinue in case of an algae outbreak.

Sorry, but in my higher Nitrate water algae is just a question of
keeping it in check, where I am hoping that adding lots of plants can
at least keep me closer to the 50 mg/l level. Going below that I see
as next to impossible, when my two White Mollies have bred to make the
current seven White Mollies who like to eat and poop a lot.

I swear that I must be over feeding them, even if those hungry mouths
consume all the double daily feeding within a minute or two. Those
White Mollies are so pro-food that they even eat some of the algae,
but of course not enough to keep it in control.

Well I am just here to air my current thoughts as I work on improving
my aquarium (20 gallon) and slowly getting the two new aquariums (one
20 gallon and one 40 gallon) up and running.

I have been wondering if in my new 40 gallon tank I should add a layer
of peat under the gravel (and a small sand section), with a layer of
protection between the two of course. As that could help the plants
further (the aquarium guides hardly mention this), but I am worried
about the effects this would have on the water.

Anyway, if you fancy commenting on any section, then just snip and
quote as you please. I am now off to give lots of water a heavy
boiling, which I am sure will achieve serious water improvement.

Cardman.
http://www.cardman.com
http://www.cardman.co.uk


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.648 / Virus Database: 415 - Release Date: 3/31/2004

"Bob Alston" wrote in message
news:CWqbc.88256$Bg.86828@fed1read03...
So how do you know you have enough light? Generally the lights that come
with aquariums only have enough light for relatively low light plants. In
my experience, Myriophyllum requires fairly bright lighting, perhaps 3 watts
per gallon or more? So I would either look into getting more light or
replace it with other low light requiring plants like: Java fern, java
moss, anubias, etc.

Agreed.

pH = 7.8
KH = 15
GH = 20.5
NO2 = 0.01 mg/l
NO3 = 100 mg/l


Also, Myriophyllum is happer in slightly acidic and soft water.
Your conditions may well be too alkaline and hard for the plant to
thrive. (Even under ideal conditions, Myriophyllum Tuberculatum
is considered a difficult plant to grow and will not do well in many
tanks.)

BTW -- you should try to get those nitrate levels down. 100ppm is
definitely on the very high side where it will be toxic for at least some
fish species. Adding lots more plants will help in reducing nitrate
levels.

Cheers,

Michi.

On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 21:33:29 GMT, "Michi Henning"
wrote:

My previous rambling...
pH = 7.8
KH = 15
GH = 20.5
NO2 = 0.01 mg/l
NO3 = 100 mg/l

Also, Myriophyllum is happer in slightly acidic and soft water.

Well my tank water will one day soon be this...

pH = 7.0-7.2
KH = 5
GH = 7
NO2 = 0
NO3 = 50-100 mg/l

You can see my more recent postings for the details, which makes for
water that may be more favourable to this plant.

Your conditions may well be too alkaline and hard for the plant to
thrive.

Maybe that is one reason why these two plants suffered a rapid death,
where only their core sections are now alive.

From what I have read Myriophyllum Tuberculatum is a little more
flexible in the water quality than what you seem to indicate, where it
just does not like the extremes.

Like my former extremely hard water.

(Even under ideal conditions, Myriophyllum Tuberculatum
is considered a difficult plant to grow and will not do well in many
tanks.)

Yes, I found that out, when I began searching into why these plants
were dying. Since it is a question of trying to save them, or having
them visit my bin, then it is best to see if I can save them first.

I am starting to think that this could be rather hopeless though.

And there they were doing so well in the pet shop with no real
maintenance sources, like a light, either. I think we know why that
is...

BTW -- you should try to get those nitrate levels down. 100ppm is
definitely on the very high side where it will be toxic for at least some
fish species.

My fish can live in much higher levels perfectly fine, where they just
become unhappy in a world where algae rules. So they are very happy
with anything between 50 and 150 mg/l, when algae growth is very slow
at this level.

Adding lots more plants will help in reducing nitrate
levels.

A nice idea, but what you do not mention is that plants in fact use up
very little Nitrate, which is why I would have to bed plants very
heavily for any beneficial effects.

And so there is nothing that I can really do when it comes out the tap
at 50 mg/l +-20% to begin with, where the fish pooping will only cause
it to go higher.

That is unless you know of some way to turn Nitrate into something
else that won't harm fish?

So my objective is always to try and keep Nitrate levels below 100
mg/l, when going above 150 mg/l poses a rapid algae problem. Like even
now I am starting to get a little algae growth on the glass again,
after I had scraped the last lot off.

Plants I am sure will help slow the Nitrate advancement to an unknown
degree, but at this time I have 7 White Mollies, 5 Red-Eyed Tetras and
2 other fish (not in my fish book...). And with the White Mollies at
least that is a lot of end Nitrate production.

In case you are interested, then I am soon to stock a load of varies
plants that are rated in the "easy" level and suitable for my water.

My shopping list is currently...

5 x Hygrophila Polysperma
1 x Anubias Nana
3 x Crinium Thainium
5 x Microsorium Pteropus
5 x (Assorted) Cryptocorynes

Since I am in the process of changing my water quality by a
considerable degree, then I will have to review these and make sure
that they are suitable for my new water.

Any comments in my 18 plant choice welcome.

My only issue at the moment is with these Crinium Thainium (onion like
plants), when they need lots of space. For my small 20 gallon tank
that would be impossible, but I will soon have my other 20 and 40
gallon tanks up and running. So one in each tank could have them
growing just fine in lots of space.

Cardman.
http://www.cardman.com
http://www.cardman.co.uk

"Cardman" wrote in message
...

BTW -- you should try to get those nitrate levels down. 100ppm is
definitely on the very high side where it will be toxic for at least some
fish species.

My fish can live in much higher levels perfectly fine, where they just
become unhappy in a world where algae rules. So they are very happy
with anything between 50 and 150 mg/l, when algae growth is very slow
at this level.

100 ppm NO3 is extremely toxic for freshwater fish, but of course any animal
can acclimatize to unsavoury conditions given time. I'm not surprised that
algae growth is slow at 100 ppm Nitrates. Algae is opportunistic and will
find a better environment or hibernate.

Adding lots more plants will help in reducing nitrate
levels.

A nice idea, but what you do not mention is that plants in fact use up
very little Nitrate, which is why I would have to bed plants very
heavily for any beneficial effects.

Plants use a lot of NO3 here. Given that your nitrate levels exceed 100ppm
I'm not surprised that you see no NO3 consumption.
The poor plants have no chance to even get started.

I'd suggest you reduce nitrate from your tap water to start with.

Regards
Graham.

On Mon, 5 Apr 2004 22:09:19 +1000, "Graham Broadbridge"
wrote:

"Cardman" wrote in message
.. .

BTW -- you should try to get those nitrate levels down. 100ppm is
definitely on the very high side where it will be toxic for at least some
fish species.

My fish can live in much higher levels perfectly fine, where they just
become unhappy in a world where algae rules. So they are very happy
with anything between 50 and 150 mg/l, when algae growth is very slow
at this level.

100 ppm NO3 is extremely toxic for freshwater fish, but of course any animal
can acclimatize to unsavoury conditions given time.

Well, even had I replaced totally all the water, then Nitrate levels
would exceed 100ppm in about a week.

In rare occasions when I am just two occupied with other things, then
it is algae that controls my Nitrate levels by explosive algae growth.

I'm not surprised that
algae growth is slow at 100 ppm Nitrates. Algae is opportunistic and will
find a better environment or hibernate.

Currently I manually remove it as much as possible.

A nice idea, but what you do not mention is that plants in fact use up
very little Nitrate, which is why I would have to bed plants very
heavily for any beneficial effects.

Plants use a lot of NO3 here. Given that your nitrate levels exceed 100ppm
I'm not surprised that you see no NO3 consumption.

My problem I am sure is half due to the Nitrate levels in my tap water
followed by more than a few fish in the aquarium.

The poor plants have no chance to even get started.

My plant problem is more a case of unsuitable plants for my former
water conditions and lighting, when those plants that are suitable do
very well.

Their problem then is mostly an algae one, where my Goldfish Weed is a
favoured sticking point for algae. And since this is difficult to
remove, then often some of the plant is removed with it.

I still have some of this plant growing in my tank, but either I need
to get algae and Nitrate levels in better control, or my new plants
will need to be algae resistant.

I'd suggest you reduce nitrate from your tap water to start with.

Yes, where now that I am aware that there is high levels of Nitrate in
my tap water, then so can I do something about it.

Keeping a good aquarium is all about such knowledge.

Cardman
http://www.cardman.com
http://www.cardman.co.uk

"Cardman" wrote in message
...

Your conditions may well be too alkaline and hard for the plant to
thrive.

Maybe that is one reason why these two plants suffered a rapid death,
where only their core sections are now alive.

From what I have read Myriophyllum Tuberculatum is a little more
flexible in the water quality than what you seem to indicate, where it
just does not like the extremes.

Like my former extremely hard water.

Seems likely. I forgot to mention that the plant is also very light
demanding, which may be part of the problem.

And there they were doing so well in the pet shop with no real
maintenance sources, like a light, either. I think we know why that
is...

Because they order a bunch of new ones every week to replace the
ones that are dying? ;-)

BTW -- you should try to get those nitrate levels down. 100ppm is
definitely on the very high side where it will be toxic for at least some
fish species.

My fish can live in much higher levels perfectly fine, where they just
become unhappy in a world where algae rules. So they are very happy
with anything between 50 and 150 mg/l, when algae growth is very slow
at this level.

If your fish are happy, no prob. Some species apparently die above 50ppm.
(No first-hand experience with this for me, I'm just repeating what I've read
in various books.) But other species tolerate much higher levels, so I guess
it depends on what fish you keep.

Adding lots more plants will help in reducing nitrate
levels.

A nice idea, but what you do not mention is that plants in fact use up
very little Nitrate, which is why I would have to bed plants very
heavily for any beneficial effects.

Not sure about that. I have a fairly heavily planted tank (admittedly with
not all that large a fish load). I have to add nitrates twice weekly to keep
the level at around 10ppm. Even if I dose the tank to 20ppm, three to four
days later, it's back down to zero. The plants definitely have something to
with this. I suspect (but don't know for sure) that there may also be some
amount of anaerobic nitrate reduction happening in my canister filter
and possible in parts of the substrate.

And so there is nothing that I can really do when it comes out the tap
at 50 mg/l +-20% to begin with, where the fish pooping will only cause
it to go higher.

That is unless you know of some way to turn Nitrate into something
else that won't harm fish?

Well, you could try lots of plants, and slow filter. That will contribute
toward reducing nitrates. You also add a denitrification filter. From
what I hear, they are a bit finicky though -- the the flow rate too high
and they do nothing, and get it too low, and they put hydrogen sulfate
into the water. (H2S is toxic.) But such a filter may not be a bad choice
given that you have high nitrate levels in your tap water.

Or you could use reverse osmosis water for all your water changes
(adding the appropriate salts to bring hardness up to what you want,
of course). But that's quite tedious process compared to just running
the garden hose into the tank.

In case you are interested, then I am soon to stock a load of varies
plants that are rated in the "easy" level and suitable for my water.

My shopping list is currently...

5 x Hygrophila Polysperma
1 x Anubias Nana
3 x Crinium Thainium
5 x Microsorium Pteropus
5 x (Assorted) Cryptocorynes

The hygrophila would be your best bet as a nitrate remover.
It's quick-growing and fixes nitrates well. The anubias, java fern,
and the crypts will do their bit too, but not as effectively because
they are fairly slow-growing plants. (I don't have experience with
the Crinium.) Another one you might want to consider is Vallisneria.
Good at removing nitrates and not easily infected by algae.

At any rate, lots of plants and few fish are likely to reduce nitrates
by quite a bit. And the plants will be happy with the nitrates -- it's
food :-) Keep the plants happy by adding traces (PMDD or some
such and CO2) and you may well find your nitrate levels dropping
quite a bit.

Cheers,

Michi.
--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com

On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 13:41:35 GMT, "Michi Henning"
wrote:

"Cardman" wrote in message
.. .

Like my former extremely hard water.

Seems likely. I forgot to mention that the plant is also very light
demanding, which may be part of the problem.

Yes, which why it seems rather hopeless at providing for it's very
high light requirements. Not good water and not good lighting would
well explain why this plant died so quickly.

And there they were doing so well in the pet shop with no real
maintenance sources, like a light, either. I think we know why that
is...

Because they order a bunch of new ones every week to replace the
ones that are dying? ;-)

Seems like they do that for the fish as well. As I have been to more
than a few fish stores in my time, where that one was quite bad with
more than a few fish dying in their many aquariums.

My fish can live in much higher levels perfectly fine, where they just
become unhappy in a world where algae rules. So they are very happy
with anything between 50 and 150 mg/l, when algae growth is very slow
at this level.

If your fish are happy, no prob. Some species apparently die above 50ppm.
(No first-hand experience with this for me, I'm just repeating what I've read
in various books.) But other species tolerate much higher levels, so I guess
it depends on what fish you keep.

I guess that any fish that does not like my water would soon exit it,
which at least reminds me of one case where that has happened. An
elephant-nosed something or other I recall, which had to navigate a
very hard assault course to eventually die on the wrong side of my
former condensation lid.

That was many years ago, but I named that one James Bond for doing
something that I considered near impossible. Up through a tiny gap, on
to the backing shelf, through an inch wide hole, then to die on the
condensation lid under the light.

Most fish living in this region I guess would soon adjust to the local
water supply, when I doubt that many people would spend hours
processing their water first.

Adding lots more plants will help in reducing nitrate
levels.

A nice idea, but what you do not mention is that plants in fact use up
very little Nitrate, which is why I would have to bed plants very
heavily for any beneficial effects.

Not sure about that. I have a fairly heavily planted tank (admittedly with
not all that large a fish load).

Obviously we can now see why your Nitrate levels are so low, where
equally removing my many fish from my tank would do the same.

My increasing Nitrate problem I am sure is due to my White Mollies who
like to both eat and poop a great deal. That is part of the reason why
they would soon be in a larger 40 gallon aquarium, when these five
young White Mollies are soon to become adults.

I would say at a crude guess that my Nitrate levels increase by about
50ppm per week, which is why I cannot leave it for more than a couple
of weeks without a good water change, when algae growth is explosive
if I do not change the water in that time.

I have to add nitrates twice weekly to keep
the level at around 10ppm. Even if I dose the tank to 20ppm, three to four
days later, it's back down to zero. The plants definitely have something to
with this. I suspect (but don't know for sure) that there may also be some
amount of anaerobic nitrate reduction happening in my canister filter
and possible in parts of the substrate.

Sounds like you need some more fish, where my White Mollies make for a
good example of the type that would be good at Nitrate production.

They don't much eat the plants either, when they seem to prefer algae,
but maybe you prefer manually adding Nitrate.

The only thing about Mollies is that the largest male can go about
chasing both other males and females in their mating ritual. So it is
not a good idea to keep Mollies with the likes of Swordtails, Platies
and maybe even Guppies.

And so there is nothing that I can really do when it comes out the tap
at 50 mg/l +-20% to begin with, where the fish pooping will only cause
it to go higher.

That is unless you know of some way to turn Nitrate into something
else that won't harm fish?

Well, you could try lots of plants,

I am giving that serious consideration, but then that enters a whole
new area of caring for plants as well. As until now I just have a
handful of plants and let them grow.

and slow filter.

What type?

My aquarium has a two filter system that I find works very well,
excluding the aspect of Nitrate control.

First of all this aquarium has an under gravel filter, which is
attached to a power head. This works very well in sucking waste
material into the gravel, where the bacteria does a very efficient job
with the NO2 to NO3 cycle.

This power head also does a great job of providing vast volumes of
oxygen (air) into the aquarium, which is why it is the main aspect for
keeping my aquarium in working order.

I have a second air system that I am soon to replace, when this weak
pump is just no good at getting air into the water depths.

My second filter is just one of those sponge types, which I let sit on
the gravel to one side, where of course on the gravel is where the
waste material is to be found.

That will contribute
toward reducing nitrates. You also add a denitrification filter. From
what I hear, they are a bit finicky though -- the the flow rate too high
and they do nothing, and get it too low, and they put hydrogen sulfate
into the water. (H2S is toxic.) But such a filter may not be a bad choice
given that you have high nitrate levels in your tap water.

Yes, where I have already come to the conclusion that I will need to
add one of these to my shopping list in the near future. When high
Nitrate levels in the tap water is a new thing for me.

I will certainly remember about the flow rate, but hopefully this is
not the case of replacing one problem with a worse problem.

Or you could use reverse osmosis water for all your water changes
(adding the appropriate salts to bring hardness up to what you want,
of course). But that's quite tedious process compared to just running
the garden hose into the tank.

My boiling method works great at softening my water and turning it
into what aquarium water should be, where only the remaining 50ppm
Nitrate levels is an issue.

My shopping list is currently...

5 x Hygrophila Polysperma
1 x Anubias Nana
3 x Crinium Thainium
5 x Microsorium Pteropus
5 x (Assorted) Cryptocorynes

The hygrophila would be your best bet as a nitrate remover.
It's quick-growing and fixes nitrates well. The anubias, java fern,
and the crypts will do their bit too, but not as effectively because
they are fairly slow-growing plants.

I will keep that I mind. I am soon to review my plant choice to make
fully sure that they are suitable, where the Hygrophila ones certainly
are after my quick check.

(I don't have experience with the Crinium.)

Well I just like the unusual nature of this plant, where it is a slow
growing plant that needs lots of space. So this is my exception to the
fast growing pack them together types that I would ideally need.

Another one you might want to consider is Vallisneria.

I already have one, when that was the one plant out of my random three
plant choice that did do well. So well that it is trying to take over
the surface of this small 20 gallon aquarium.

As I mentioned before that is why I am soon to move it to the 40
gallon aquarium, even if I have a feeling that like adding 10 bunches
of this plant for near out of control plant growth is the type of
Nitrate handling system that I need.

Still, I would desire to see my fish after this.

Good at removing nitrates and not easily infected by algae.

Very true, when it is my third plant that I cannot identify that is
suffering some kind of black algae covering to it's leafs. I tried
cleaning this off the other day, but it is suck on there very well.

This plant I am sure will benefit from my soon to be improved
lighting, when I would say that is what this plant is most lacking,
when it is suck in the middle of plant growth and plant death.

At any rate, lots of plants and few fish are likely to reduce nitrates
by quite a bit.

I would prefer more than a few fish and tackling Nitrate levels by all
available methods. I just hope that my White Mollies slow down on the
breeding, when two White Mollies to seven White Molllies over just a
few months gives me visions of what a couple of years worth can
produce.

And the plants will be happy with the nitrates -- it's
food :-) Keep the plants happy by adding traces (PMDD or some
such and CO2)

I had a feeling that you would mention CO2. :-/

At this time I am starting to use some Blue Trace plant supplement.

and you may well find your nitrate levels dropping
quite a bit.

I have a feeling that removing Nitrate from my water supply is my
current best method for keeping Nitrate levels under control. As I
still doubt that these plants will be able to fully deal with the
Nitrate production within this aquarium.

So having both a Nitrate Filter and plants would keep Nitrate levels
within acceptable values.

Thanks for your advice.

Cardman.
http://www.cardman.com
http://www.cardman.co.uk

On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 13:41:35 GMT, "Michi Henning"
wrote:

Another one you might want to consider is Vallisneria.

Actually, speaking of Vallisneria, then I was just wondering after
this mention how this plant reproduced. With the notion here of course
that this is a nice plant for my aquarium, where more of them is not a
bad idea.

And so I went to take a good look at my Vallisneria, where I just
noticed that it is already reproducing. As this large plant has put
out two shoots in opposite directions near it's own roots, where these
have penetrated the gravel only a few cm away.

From those two points, then one new plant is already well established,
where a second one is just starting. Further more a third new plant
has started near the better established one.

Then there is a new shoot further out from these two, where I can only
assume that this first offshoot from the main plant has traveled
across and under the gravel for about 20cm so far producing new plants
as it goes.

So my one Vallisneria is already five Vallisnerias with no doubt more
to come. This I guess is all one plant so far, where I have no idea it
they will naturally separate.

Kind of a shame that I will soon have to break this up when I move
this plant and lots more to the bigger aquarium.

So I guess that this Vallisneria is taking care of itself without
myself having to do anything. Just the type of aquarium plant I
like...

Cardman
http://www.cardman.com
http://www.cardman.co.uk

"Michi Henning" wrote in message
...

Well, you could try lots of plants, and slow filter. That will contribute
toward reducing nitrates. You also add a denitrification filter. From
what I hear, they are a bit finicky though -- the the flow rate too high
and they do nothing, and get it too low, and they put hydrogen sulfate
into the water. (H2S is toxic.) But such a filter may not be a bad choice
given that you have high nitrate levels in your tap water.

I've had very little success with denitrification filters. About 10 years
ago I tried a
sera denitrator and that failed dismally - although that may have been
because I didn't
understand the process and my flow rate was probably too high.

Recently I tried a home brew filter using around 50 metres of tubing, but I
couldn't get
the flow rate correct to maintain an anaerobic culture. It just clogged up.

Best bet to reduce nitrate levels are lots of adequately fertilised plants
and water changes.

Even that has it's challenges :-)



Graham.