How to restart (after a huge disaster)

Hi,
I was given a couple of goldfish (a bubble eye and another one
which was orange and white) by my officemate about five months ago
together with a 10 gallon tank and some very basic starter equipment. I
didn't know anything much about goldfish at all and made some huge
mistakes in the beginning. This included changing 100% of the water once
a month, not changing the water once for seven weeks etc. Amazingly,
they survived through all this though both usually used to sit at the
bottom and mostly swim only when they were fed. Otherwise, they seemed
ok (except that the bubble eye's bubbles became unbalanced - bad but
nothing to compare what was to follow). This was until about three weeks
ago. About a month ago, my roommate gave me a small pleco to add to the
tank. The pleco seemed to like its new home (there was a -lot- of brown
algae on the surfaces of the tank) after some initial stress.
About two weeks after this, the bubble started to eat much less.
I read up a bit on rearing goldfish on the web and started using a
gravel vacuum to make partial changes and over the next few days, added
a bubble curtain and started using "Start Right" with the water changes.
I noticed some white "grains of salt" on the bubble-eye and applied some
"Quick Cure" from the pet shop as well as 2tbsp of salt. The next day, I
noticed that the bubble eye also had a huge red patch between the
bubbles and small red patches were just beginning to appear on both the
other goldfish (now very inactive) and pleco (still fairly active). At
that time (about 5 days ago), I got Maracyn-2 and started the fish on
that and added another tbsp of aquarium salt to the tank. I only had an
ammonia test kit (no nitrite) and regular tests since then showed zero
ammonia until today. Soon after, the pleco's red patch seemed to
disapper (within a few hours) but it died very soon after I changed the
water the next day (I was doing 30% water changes every other day after
starting the Maracyn-2 since I got rid of the activated carbon) - it was
floating on top dead. Yesterday night, the bubble-eye died (did a water
change yesterday). Since the Maracyn-2 was not working and it was
getting to the end of the 5 day course, I thought of making a last-ditch
attempt to save the other goldfish with some Maracyn today. I did an
ammonia test and for the first time it was positive (0.5 -1) so I
immediately did a 50% water change and put in the last dose of Maracyn-2
and the first dose of Maracyn. This last goldfish was until 2 days ago
eating small amounts of tubifex worms out of my hand (it would not eat
if the food was not directly in front of it) so I still had a bit of
hope left. However, immediately after the water change, it swam
(struggling) to the bubble curtain and stayed there. It generally seemed
out of air and died a couple of hours later. While clearly sick, it
didn't look like it was on the verge of death before the water change.
This brings out a big question. The "Start Right" that I bought
was purple in colour and my big doubt was that it had a bit of potassium
permanganate (only purple chemical I know). I was adding about 2/3 tsp
of "Start Right" to the water before adding it to the aquarium. Now, I
know potassium permanganate will reduce the available oxygen to he fish.
So now, I am wondering if the "Start Right" contributed to the death of
the fish since they seemed to die quite soon after the water changes
(atleast the pleco was probably asphyxiated and as I sadly watched the
last goldfish die today - it was clearly asphyxiated).

I am still thinking of getting some new goldfish (yes, I seem to
be a goldfish killer but I think I have learnt quite a bit over the last
few days and will be more careful now) and don't want to repeat these
mistakes so I am going to read the FAQ and would appreciate any advice
and really want to know if "Start Right" contains potassium permanganate
(they should have a warning about this - there are no ingredients listed
on it). Thanks in advance for any comments.

Srikant

Firstly, your 10 gallon was overstocked. 10 gallons per goldfish is the minimum
as goldfish are
extremely messy fish. Secondly it sounds like you did not cycle your tank. You
need to cycle
the tank to establish good bacteria that breaks waste ammonia into nitrite into
nitrates (do a google
search!!)
Ammonia and NitrIte can be lethal to fish, Nitrate is not as bad as long as it
is kept below 20ppm
(some people say below 40ppm). Thirdly, it sounds like you did not quarantine
your pleco - always
quarantine new species before putting into a main tank as they can brind
diseases, lastly Plecos and
goldfish do not mix. Plecos develop a taste for slimecoats as they get older.
Thats is my 2 cents!

I would suggest you start with some easier fish. Bubble-eye is quite a
tricky critter to cater for. Common goldfish will put up with a lot
more than those fancies - but even in the fancy field bubble eyes are
one of the most prone to problems I think.

But really - you have only room for one goldfish in there - and they
always do better in groups - so you might like to think about
something else.

Some easy fish you could keep in there? a weather loach, maybe some
zebra danios or white cloud mountain minnows.

"Mick Manford" wrote in message
om...
I would suggest you start with some easier fish. Bubble-eye is quite a
tricky critter to cater for. Common goldfish will put up with a lot
more than those fancies - but even in the fancy field bubble eyes are
one of the most prone to problems I think.

But really - you have only room for one goldfish in there - and they
always do better in groups - so you might like to think about
something else.

Some easy fish you could keep in there? a weather loach, maybe some
zebra danios or white cloud mountain minnows

Right Start.. Generally I use that chemical during the initial setup in a
larger tank.. I am cycling through one of my 55's for tempoary place for
some of the more agressive fish from the Community tank.. Other wise I
don't use the stuff, as I am not overly convinced on the usefulness of
chemically inducing a cycle. When I do water changes, genrally I let the
water sit for 24 hrs with out a lid on the container to let the chemicals in
the standing water disapate.. ( here is a good place to use a chemical, a
chlorine/cloramine eliminator might be useful for you. ). After all a ten
gallon tank 10% water change is only a gallon of water, which is the same
size a milk container, which could be kept out of sight in the office.. You
could keep one GF in there and that would pretty much be all.. I have never
had problems with my Pl*co's liking the slime coats on fish, but apparently
people have been having problems with this.. You have to take into
consideration as well, most pl*co's will out grow a ten gallon tank .. ( the
common pl*c's most fish stores sell can get to 18 inches ) You could
consider getting a rubber lip pl*c or a bristle nose pl*c as these fellows
rarely get over 6 inches.. I don't like the Danios as these fellows seem to
fin nip other fish, you might consider a Betta as well.. I think they are
easy to take care of, and most have fabtastic colours. But most of all ( I
read that you have taken steps to educate yourself ) read read read.. Its
wonderful hobby...

Tim...

On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 20:39:41 GMT, T wrote:

"Mick Manford" wrote in message
om...
I would suggest you start with some easier fish. Bubble-eye is quite a
tricky critter to cater for. Common goldfish will put up with a lot
more than those fancies - but even in the fancy field bubble eyes are
one of the most prone to problems I think.

But really - you have only room for one goldfish in there - and they
always do better in groups - so you might like to think about
something else.

Some easy fish you could keep in there? a weather loach, maybe some
zebra danios or white cloud mountain minnows

Right Start.. Generally I use that chemical during the initial setup in a
larger tank.. I am cycling through one of my 55's for tempoary place for
some of the more agressive fish from the Community tank.. Other wise I
don't use the stuff, as I am not overly convinced on the usefulness of
chemically inducing a cycle. When I do water changes, genrally I let the
water sit for 24 hrs with out a lid on the container to let the chemicals in
the standing water disapate.. ( here is a good place to use a chemical, a
chlorine/cloramine eliminator might be useful for you. ). After all a ten
gallon tank 10% water change is only a gallon of water, which is the same
size a milk container, which could be kept out of sight in the office.. You
could keep one GF in there and that would pretty much be all.. I have never
had problems with my Pl*co's liking the slime coats on fish, but apparently
people have been having problems with this.. You have to take into
consideration as well, most pl*co's will out grow a ten gallon tank .. ( the
common pl*c's most fish stores sell can get to 18 inches ) You could
consider getting a rubber lip pl*c or a bristle nose pl*c as these fellows
rarely get over 6 inches.. I don't like the Danios as these fellows seem to
fin nip other fish, you might consider a Betta as well.. I think they are
easy to take care of, and most have fabtastic colours. But most of all ( I
read that you have taken steps to educate yourself ) read read read.. Its
wonderful hobby...

Tim...

Thanks for all your replies. After going through the FAQ and reading the
replies, I am thinking of getting some of the cyprinids. Any thoughts on
how to get the old tank ready and running again. It is still in almost
the same state as a couple of days ago (I haven't yet cleaned it or
removed the water which I suppose I obvously should) without the
goldfish, of course. I have several friends with aquaria (by the
standards of 10 gal/gf, almost all seem to have overcrowded their tanks,
with my roommates tank being 10 gal (was 5 gal earlier!) having one
medium sized common goldfish (~3in) and four small ones (~1-1.5in)), so
should I try and get some of the nitrifying bacteria from them to
jumpstart the cycling? I have read that most of the cyprinids are
schooling fish, so how should I do the cycling since it is recommended I
get just one or two small ones to do so (couldn't really quite figure
out what precisely to do from the FAQ)? Any suggestions will be much
appreciated.

Also, in retrospect, I realised that just before some of the worse
problems started I changed my filter covering of my power filter (not
just the carbon which was what I was changing earlier) twice in fairly
quick succession. I suppose this removed a lot of the good bacteria
(somehow, I was under the impression they were living mostly in the
gravel). Obviously, I need to learn quite a bit more (I have an
encyclopedia of tropical fish but that goes far too much in depth
assuming one has easy access to microscopes etc. to be of much use to
me right now) and the FAQ seems quite useful.

Srikant

On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 19:50:23 -0600, Marakani Srikant
wrote:
On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 20:39:41 GMT, T wrote:

"Mick Manford" wrote in message
om...
I would suggest you start with some easier fish. Bubble-eye is quite a
tricky critter to cater for. Common goldfish will put up with a lot
more than those fancies - but even in the fancy field bubble eyes are
one of the most prone to problems I think.

But really - you have only room for one goldfish in there - and they
always do better in groups - so you might like to think about
something else.

Some easy fish you could keep in there? a weather loach, maybe some
zebra danios or white cloud mountain minnows

Right Start.. Generally I use that chemical during the initial setup in a
larger tank.. I am cycling through one of my 55's for tempoary place for
some of the more agressive fish from the Community tank.. Other wise I
don't use the stuff, as I am not overly convinced on the usefulness of
chemically inducing a cycle. When I do water changes, genrally I let the
water sit for 24 hrs with out a lid on the container to let the chemicals in
the standing water disapate.. ( here is a good place to use a chemical, a
chlorine/cloramine eliminator might be useful for you. ). After all a ten
gallon tank 10% water change is only a gallon of water, which is the same
size a milk container, which could be kept out of sight in the office.. You
could keep one GF in there and that would pretty much be all.. I have never
had problems with my Pl*co's liking the slime coats on fish, but apparently
people have been having problems with this.. You have to take into
consideration as well, most pl*co's will out grow a ten gallon tank .. ( the
common pl*c's most fish stores sell can get to 18 inches ) You could
consider getting a rubber lip pl*c or a bristle nose pl*c as these fellows
rarely get over 6 inches.. I don't like the Danios as these fellows seem to
fin nip other fish, you might consider a Betta as well.. I think they are
easy to take care of, and most have fabtastic colours. But most of all ( I
read that you have taken steps to educate yourself ) read read read.. Its
wonderful hobby...

Tim...

Thanks for all your replies. After going through the FAQ and reading the
replies, I am thinking of getting some of the cyprinids. Any thoughts on
how to get the old tank ready and running again. It is still in almost
the same state as a couple of days ago (I haven't yet cleaned it or
removed the water which I suppose I obvously should) without the
goldfish, of course. I have several friends with aquaria (by the
standards of 10 gal/gf, almost all seem to have overcrowded their tanks,
with my roommates tank being 10 gal (was 5 gal earlier!) having one
medium sized common goldfish (~3in) and four small ones (~1-1.5in)), so
should I try and get some of the nitrifying bacteria from them to
jumpstart the cycling? I have read that most of the cyprinids are
schooling fish, so how should I do the cycling since it is recommended I
get just one or two small ones to do so (couldn't really quite figure
out what precisely to do from the FAQ)? Any suggestions will be much
appreciated.

Also, in retrospect, I realised that just before some of the worse
problems started I changed my filter covering of my power filter (not
just the carbon which was what I was changing earlier) twice in fairly
quick succession. I suppose this removed a lot of the good bacteria
(somehow, I was under the impression they were living mostly in the
gravel). Obviously, I need to learn quite a bit more (I have an
encyclopedia of tropical fish but that goes far too much in depth
assuming one has easy access to microscopes etc. to be of much use to
me right now) and the FAQ seems quite useful.

I realize it is a bit silly to followup to my own post but I would
appreciate it very much if someone could tell me whether to clean up my
tank completely (seems like the right thing since there might be bad
bacteria around) but it seems I could preserve some of the nitrifying
bacteria if I just cleaned it up generally (without bleach) and then
started up the cycling. After a bit of reading, I think I am going to
get some zebras (on sale at my neighbourhood pet store).

Srikant