PMDD, Plantex CSM+B, Greg Watson et al..

On 30 Jul 2006 22:00:44 -0700, wrote:



Pete wrote: Many thanks for your replies guys.

I can't believe that I ordered all the Flourish stuff from
www.aquaessentials.co.uk - I didn't even notice the PMDD link on the
left!!

Thanks again from me and my wallet!!
Pete

If you need to relieve your guilt, I do accept paypal

Regards,
Tom Barr


www.BarrReport.com

Like your style

Pete

In article ,
Pete wrote:
I make 20% water changes twice weekly, no additives, the refill is
straight from the tap. I use no fertilizers for the live plants, they
live on the waste from the fish. I don't use bio filters, just a

While this does work for some poeple it seldome worked for me. Fertilizing
peoperly makes a helluva difference and really is dead easy.

The first time or times is rather daunting. Mixing up solutions,
getting into a shcedule etc, but once there you can't go back
and it's easier than loading a dishwasher.

I just throw some in wednesdays and saturdays plus or minus a day.

Uh, the plant fertilizer, not the dishwasher.


--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

GOOD
http://www.caoc3.org

Dick wrote:
On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 18:26:31 +0100, Pete
wrote:

I live in the UK and have a 54x24x24 very well planted freshwater
community tank.
3 x 36W Triton flourescent tubes 12 hrs/day
2 x 150W MH 6,500k 8hrs/day
Eheim 2217 Canister filter
Eheim 2329 wet/dry filter

With the exception of vallis and cabomba, the other 180ish plants
(mixed varieties) are barely growing, so I've invested in a
pressureized CO2 setup with pH controller which I will have in
operation by the end of next week.

I've been using Seachem Flourish, Flourish Excel, Flourish Trace and
Flourish Iron to help the plants along and there has been some slight
growth over the past couple of weeks - problem is the cost of these
additives - it cost £73 for enough of the above Flourish products to
last about 6 months, then I came across Greg Watson's site.....

As far as I can tell, I need to get hold of ingredients for Plantex
CSM+B which comprises-

1.5% Magnesium (MG),
1.5% Magnesium (cheleted)
0.10% Copper (Cu)
7.0% Iron (Fe - cheleted),
2.0% Maganese (Mn - Cheleted)
0.06% Molybedenum (MO)
0.40% Zinc (Zn - cheleted).
Boric Acid

A Google UK search for Plantex shows links to Greg's site plus some
others that sell weed-supressing membranes (!!??)
As I'm in the UK I doubt that shipping the chemicals from Canada is
going to be cost effective or allowed by Customs.
Rex Grigg's site gives some links to UK suppliers, but I can't find
the whole list of ingredients.

To make up the macronutrient mix I need-
MgSO4+7H2O (Magnesium Sulfate)
K2SO4 (Potassium Sulfate)
KNO3

Is it possible to buy the ingredients to make CSM+B and the
macronutrients in the UK or is there a 'UK alternative'?

The results from my Nutrafin test kit indicate -

Date Temp Time NO2 PH Fe Fe GH
KH PO4 NO3 NH3/NH4 Ca

chelated 15/07/2006
14.30 0.1 240 140 7
Tap water
15/07/2006 26.2 14.00 0.1 8 0 0 240
100 2.0 50 0 120 Tank Water
22/07/2006 28.2 13.00 0.1 8.2 0 0.01 240
110 1.5 40 0 90 Tank Water

I'm a little suspicious of the pH reading - the tap water here is
hard/very hard (acording to our water supplier) and comes up around
7.4.and a pH test strip (litmus paper) gives 6.8 (!) Matching the
colours on the nutrafin kit I guess depends partly on how colour blind
I am. I find that depending on the angle at which the test tube is
held against the colour matcher almost any shade of the desired colour
could be interpreted, so I wouldn't say the above readings are gospel.

Many thanks in advance

Pete

Hi Pete,

You chemistry types seem to ask for problems. I take the simple
approach, but limit the variety of plants. Just to show what I mean
by simple:

I make 20% water changes twice weekly, no additives, the refill is
straight from the tap. I use no fertilizers for the live plants, they
live on the waste from the fish. I don't use bio filters, just a
simple filter media, no charcoal, no CO2. The lights are all (5
tanks) "low light" and the plants chosen for low light conditions.

I can understand the desire for exotic environments, but there does
appear to be a price to be paid. I just have to weed my plants every
few months.

dick

There are strong arguments for both CO2 enrichment and not.
Each has a trade off.

I have non CO2 tanks also, but unlike your tank, I can keep most any
plant species, they show no signs of issues.

Unlike your suggestion, I also do not need to do any water changes at
all. I add water for evaporation loss only and this goes on for 6-12
months before I do a good pruning and need to clean up and do a water
change. Fish health is excellent. No algae at all. Stays that way.

I add ferts once a week, a small amount, 3 things, they cost so little,
10$ would last a lifetime for most tanks using this method. This is no
harder than feeding the fish once a week 3 things. So the whole ferts
addition routine is somehow "hard", is poppycock.

Many don't add any ferts and rely solely on fish waste byut then your
plant health and choices are reduced, the once a week small additions
makes a large difference in this area and it very little trouble,
feeding trhe fish daily is much more trouble truthfully.

Some use Excel and do water changes and add ferts 1-2x a week and get
about 3x the growth or more than the non CO2/carbon enriched methods.

CO2 increases growth about 10x faster, you can do a lot of gardening
this way. If all you want is slow/no growth, then this method is not
for you.

But I'd not suggest a method is worse/better without having master both
first.
Each has a trade off and the goal of the individual varies, but that
does not imply the method that might be bad for you, is bad for anyone
else.

If you have only done CO2, try non CO2, if all you have ever done is
non CO2, try CO2.
I don't "need" to have an aquarium either, but that's hardly an
argument just like not "needing" CO2.

You do get something out of it and there's a trade off. I can say I can
go look in the lake and see all the plants I want, that's easier
certainly and cost me nothing. Without haviugn tried a planted tank in
my home or a tank at all, I'd not know the difference.


Regards,
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com

In article .com,
wrote:
Unlike your suggestion, I also do not need to do any water changes at
all. I add water for evaporation loss only and this goes on for 6-12
months before I do a good pruning and need to clean up and do a water
change. Fish health is excellent. No algae at all. Stays that way.

I subscribe to Tom's particular brand of heresy also. And it does indeed
work very well. No CO2, Add replacement water when it evaporates, and
add ferts (I only dose 2x a week) and the result is unbelievable.

Who knew defying 100 years of established aquarium lore and literature
was the right answer?


--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

On Fri, 4 Aug 2006 01:23:39 +0000 (UTC), (Richard
Sexton) wrote:

In article .com,
wrote:
Unlike your suggestion, I also do not need to do any water changes at
all. I add water for evaporation loss only and this goes on for 6-12
months before I do a good pruning and need to clean up and do a water
change. Fish health is excellent. No algae at all. Stays that way.

I subscribe to Tom's particular brand of heresy also. And it does indeed
work very well. No CO2, Add replacement water when it evaporates, and
add ferts (I only dose 2x a week) and the result is unbelievable.

Who knew defying 100 years of established aquarium lore and literature
was the right answer?

I've kept tropicals for 30+yrs. My current tank 54 x 18 x 24 was setup
20 yrs ago.
No CO2, 3 x 36X flouro's eheim 2217 filter, UGF's.
I used to do a 1/3 water change about once every 3 months, clean the
filter a couple of times a year and that was about it.

I bought a mixed selection of plants, most died, but those that liked
the conditions flourished, maintenence was almost non-existent and
the tank looked good if not spectacular.
These conditions lasted for nearly 20yrs, then the tank was hit by
'old tank syndrome' which led me to where I am today. And I have to
say that even though it's been expensive and quite a lot of work
(installing MH lights, removing UGF's, replacing gravel, adding
wet/dry filter, CO2), the early signs of using CO2 and Tom's EI
routine ar very impressive - even though I only switched the CO2 on on
1 Aug, cabomba and vallis have gone crazy, and the more demanding
plants that were previously just algae-hosts have got new leaves -
many thanks Tom!!

Best wishes
Pete

On 30 Jul 2006 22:00:44 -0700, wrote:



Pete wrote: Many thanks for your replies guys.

I can't believe that I ordered all the Flourish stuff from
www.aquaessentials.co.uk - I didn't even notice the PMDD link on the
left!!

Thanks again from me and my wallet!!
Pete

If you need to relieve your guilt, I do accept paypal

Regards,
Tom Barr


www.BarrReport.com

Giult duly relieved.
I signed-up a couple if days ago....

Pete

Pete , most of what you see is due to CO2.
Carbon is 40-45% of the plant biomass, limiting it really slows things
down.
Getting the nutrients right is actually very easy and requires little
testing.

CO2 is all that is left and should always be carefully considered when
the plant growth slows down for anyb reason or algae appears.

95% of all algae related issues twend to be CO2, not enough.
Simply adding a tad more and then observing thereafter works well.
Be careful and do this slowly, do not be liberal with this step wise
increase.
Folks have killed their fish by gassing them.

Having some surface ripples is good IME/IMO.
Do not go so far trying to conserve CO2, you can always add more and
this will allow you to add plenty and still ahve decent O2 levels for
fish.
The rest is really just pruning, cleaning, water changes etc.

Regards,
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com





Pete wrote:
On Fri, 4 Aug 2006 01:23:39 +0000 (UTC), (Richard
Sexton) wrote:

In article .com,
wrote:
Unlike your suggestion, I also do not need to do any water changes at
all. I add water for evaporation loss only and this goes on for 6-12
months before I do a good pruning and need to clean up and do a water
change. Fish health is excellent. No algae at all. Stays that way.

I subscribe to Tom's particular brand of heresy also. And it does indeed
work very well. No CO2, Add replacement water when it evaporates, and
add ferts (I only dose 2x a week) and the result is unbelievable.

Who knew defying 100 years of established aquarium lore and literature
was the right answer?

I've kept tropicals for 30+yrs. My current tank 54 x 18 x 24 was setup
20 yrs ago.
No CO2, 3 x 36X flouro's eheim 2217 filter, UGF's.
I used to do a 1/3 water change about once every 3 months, clean the
filter a couple of times a year and that was about it.

I bought a mixed selection of plants, most died, but those that liked
the conditions flourished, maintenence was almost non-existent and
the tank looked good if not spectacular.
These conditions lasted for nearly 20yrs, then the tank was hit by
'old tank syndrome' which led me to where I am today. And I have to
say that even though it's been expensive and quite a lot of work
(installing MH lights, removing UGF's, replacing gravel, adding
wet/dry filter, CO2), the early signs of using CO2 and Tom's EI
routine ar very impressive - even though I only switched the CO2 on on
1 Aug, cabomba and vallis have gone crazy, and the more demanding
plants that were previously just algae-hosts have got new leaves -
many thanks Tom!!

Best wishes
Pete

Thanks Tom - See you at the Barr Report forum where I became a
subscriber a few days ago!!

Best wishes
Pete

On 15 Aug 2006 12:46:08 -0700, wrote:

Pete , most of what you see is due to CO2.
Carbon is 40-45% of the plant biomass, limiting it really slows things
down.
Getting the nutrients right is actually very easy and requires little
testing.

CO2 is all that is left and should always be carefully considered when
the plant growth slows down for anyb reason or algae appears.

95% of all algae related issues twend to be CO2, not enough.
Simply adding a tad more and then observing thereafter works well.
Be careful and do this slowly, do not be liberal with this step wise
increase.
Folks have killed their fish by gassing them.

Having some surface ripples is good IME/IMO.
Do not go so far trying to conserve CO2, you can always add more and
this will allow you to add plenty and still ahve decent O2 levels for
fish.
The rest is really just pruning, cleaning, water changes etc.

Regards,
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com





Pete wrote:
On Fri, 4 Aug 2006 01:23:39 +0000 (UTC), (Richard
Sexton) wrote:

In article .com,
wrote:
Unlike your suggestion, I also do not need to do any water changes at
all. I add water for evaporation loss only and this goes on for 6-12
months before I do a good pruning and need to clean up and do a water
change. Fish health is excellent. No algae at all. Stays that way.

I subscribe to Tom's particular brand of heresy also. And it does indeed
work very well. No CO2, Add replacement water when it evaporates, and
add ferts (I only dose 2x a week) and the result is unbelievable.

Who knew defying 100 years of established aquarium lore and literature
was the right answer?

I've kept tropicals for 30+yrs. My current tank 54 x 18 x 24 was setup
20 yrs ago.
No CO2, 3 x 36X flouro's eheim 2217 filter, UGF's.
I used to do a 1/3 water change about once every 3 months, clean the
filter a couple of times a year and that was about it.

I bought a mixed selection of plants, most died, but those that liked
the conditions flourished, maintenence was almost non-existent and
the tank looked good if not spectacular.
These conditions lasted for nearly 20yrs, then the tank was hit by
'old tank syndrome' which led me to where I am today. And I have to
say that even though it's been expensive and quite a lot of work
(installing MH lights, removing UGF's, replacing gravel, adding
wet/dry filter, CO2), the early signs of using CO2 and Tom's EI
routine ar very impressive - even though I only switched the CO2 on on
1 Aug, cabomba and vallis have gone crazy, and the more demanding
plants that were previously just algae-hosts have got new leaves -
many thanks Tom!!

Best wishes
Pete