Losing fish...any ideas appreciated

On Sun, 29 May 2005 12:23:31 +0100, "Gill Passman"
gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote:

Hi All,
This is really a continuation from the Sick Mollie in my son's tank and
subsequent loss of two Mollies last weekend. I did my normal check this
morning and now one of the Rosy Barbs is on her way out. Checked the water
pH 8 (normal for our tanks), 0 Ammonia and Nitrites and Nitrates are at 5.

No new fish added for months. Tank has been running since last August.

Tank is around 15UK galls. Current occupants are 1 mollie and 4 Rosy Barbs
(around 10 inches of fish maximum). Plenty of plants. Water changes are
weekly 20-30%. We've had very few problems with this tank until now.

I just can't figure out what is going on here or what to do next. If the
remaining Rosy Barbs would be OK with Gouramis I suppose I could move them
and then strip down the tank - this is the only thing I can think of for
now. But I hesitate because I don't want to risk infecting any of the other
fish in the other tanks.

Does anyone have any clues as to what might be happening or what I can do
next to keep the remaining fish?

Thanks
Gill


If I try to rule out causes of death based on your info and the info
you've given to others: It doesn't appear to be a common parasite like
Ich, or velvet because you see these on the fish. Internal parasites,
worms or flagellates or whatever will usually show symptoms of the
fish getting thinner, wasting away, the feces might be weird, white
and stringy or no feces at all from the fish. So I rule out all of
these.

I rule out poisoning be it from ammonia or nitrate or metals or
something weird gotten into the tank because the fish should show
signs of poisoning: breathing faster, panting at the surface or at the
bottom of the tank.

So what's left? I think your pH is a bit high, but if others want to
say that it's fine for these fish I'll take their word for it. I don't
pay much attention to pH anymore because where I live it's 7.0 out of
the tap.

If it's bacterial in nature as Elaine suggests, the way it works, as I
understand it, is more or less like this. These bacteria which can
cause illness, Aeromonas or Mycobacterium or whatever their names are,
will always be present in your tank just like the bacteria you want in
the tank, the species which break down the ammonia and nitrites. These
evil bacteria will grow in numbers if the tank is generally not clean
enough. Keep these numbers down by vacuuming gravel and changing water
more frequently and diluting out the little buggers. The gravel in
this tank is vacuumed all the way to the bottom glass of the tank? I
ask because I think these bacteria live and multiply down there where
there is less oxygen in the water surrounding the gravel.

If this is a bacteria problem, I don't think these fish in the tank
will infect fish in other tanks. The bacteria in question are already
in the other tanks in certain numbers anyway. I think what I would do
is move all the fish in with the gouramis, and tear down this tank
completely and start it over. If you decide to do this, after you
remove fish and plants pour in some chlorine bleach and stir up the
gravel and wash it out the following day. Everything will be
killed/disinfected by the bleach.

-Derek

"Derek Benson" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 May 2005 12:23:31 +0100, "Gill Passman"
gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote:

Hi All,
This is really a continuation from the Sick Mollie in my son's tank and
subsequent loss of two Mollies last weekend. I did my normal check this
morning and now one of the Rosy Barbs is on her way out. Checked the
water
pH 8 (normal for our tanks), 0 Ammonia and Nitrites and Nitrates are at
5.

No new fish added for months. Tank has been running since last August.

Tank is around 15UK galls. Current occupants are 1 mollie and 4 Rosy
Barbs
(around 10 inches of fish maximum). Plenty of plants. Water changes are
weekly 20-30%. We've had very few problems with this tank until now.

I just can't figure out what is going on here or what to do next. If the
remaining Rosy Barbs would be OK with Gouramis I suppose I could move
them
and then strip down the tank - this is the only thing I can think of for
now. But I hesitate because I don't want to risk infecting any of the
other
fish in the other tanks.

Does anyone have any clues as to what might be happening or what I can do
next to keep the remaining fish?

Thanks
Gill


If I try to rule out causes of death based on your info and the info
you've given to others: It doesn't appear to be a common parasite like
Ich, or velvet because you see these on the fish. Internal parasites,
worms or flagellates or whatever will usually show symptoms of the
fish getting thinner, wasting away, the feces might be weird, white
and stringy or no feces at all from the fish. So I rule out all of
these.

I rule out poisoning be it from ammonia or nitrate or metals or
something weird gotten into the tank because the fish should show
signs of poisoning: breathing faster, panting at the surface or at the
bottom of the tank.

So what's left? I think your pH is a bit high, but if others want to
say that it's fine for these fish I'll take their word for it. I don't
pay much attention to pH anymore because where I live it's 7.0 out of
the tap.

If it's bacterial in nature as Elaine suggests, the way it works, as I
understand it, is more or less like this. These bacteria which can
cause illness, Aeromonas or Mycobacterium or whatever their names are,
will always be present in your tank just like the bacteria you want in
the tank, the species which break down the ammonia and nitrites. These
evil bacteria will grow in numbers if the tank is generally not clean
enough. Keep these numbers down by vacuuming gravel and changing water
more frequently and diluting out the little buggers. The gravel in
this tank is vacuumed all the way to the bottom glass of the tank? I
ask because I think these bacteria live and multiply down there where
there is less oxygen in the water surrounding the gravel.

If this is a bacteria problem, I don't think these fish in the tank
will infect fish in other tanks. The bacteria in question are already
in the other tanks in certain numbers anyway. I think what I would do
is move all the fish in with the gouramis, and tear down this tank
completely and start it over. If you decide to do this, after you
remove fish and plants pour in some chlorine bleach and stir up the
gravel and wash it out the following day. Everything will be
killed/disinfected by the bleach.

-Derek

What you are saying is making total sense....apart from a slight question
mark over a certain nephew deciding to over feed...I cannot think of
anything else (he was here a few days before the Mollie decline and again a
couple of days ago). The gravel in this tank is not what I have in the
others - it is more a pea gravel rather than the finer stuff I normally have
so harder to vaccum....maybe there is something trapped in there - like
Hydrogen Sulphide.....

My son comes back tomorrow from his Dad's....he is already disallusioned and
thinking of giving up fish keeping based on the recent deaths....I hope I
can keep him hanging in there....he truly did love it....

Gill

Thusly "Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk Spake Unto
All:

What are the symptoms of the fish?

They are absolutely fine until it happens. Swimming around happily and
feeding well - last night everyone was absolutely normal. No sign of any
bloating or distress or any marks on them at all. Then I just find them at
the bottom of the tank hardly moving and then they die.

They always die during the night?

"Mean_Chlorine" wrote in message
...
Thusly "Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk Spake Unto
All:

What are the symptoms of the fish?

They are absolutely fine until it happens. Swimming around happily and
feeding well - last night everyone was absolutely normal. No sign of any
bloating or distress or any marks on them at all. Then I just find them
at
the bottom of the tank hardly moving and then they die.

They always die during the night?


They always get ill during the night....they die later either in the next
day or the following day/night

Thusly "Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk Spake Unto
All:

They always die during the night?

They always get ill during the night....they die later either in the next
day or the following day/night

OK, that narrows it down a bit.

Two obvious alternatives are oxygen depletion and attacks by other
animals, e.g. some catfish, some crayfish... I had otocinclus which
attacked and killed fish during the night some while back, for
instance, and oxygen levels drop during the night.

However, you've listed your fish, and you've not got any fish which
should be capable of attacking other fish, and fish recover quickly
from oxygen shortage.

The main remaining possibility I can think of is flexibacter disease.
It is extremely virulent, and may kill fish so quickly that they never
develop any symptoms. The most resistant fish will, however,
eventually develop symptoms: white fungus-like growths, and ulcers on
their bodies, often around the mouth.

But until you see any symptoms, flexibacter disease is just a wild
guess based on the absence of evidence.

Gill Passman wrote:
"Elaine T" wrote in message
m...

Gill Passman wrote:

"Billy" wrote in message
...


"Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote in message
. uk...


They are absolutely fine until it happens. Swimming around happily
and
feeding well - last night everyone was absolutely normal. No sign
of any
bloating or distress or any marks on them at all. Then I just find
them at
the bottom of the tank hardly moving and then they die. Gill
movement is
normal and as I said there is no sign of any fungal infection or
injury....



Any foreign materials in tank? Recent addition of decorations?



Nothing added since the Barbs in Jan/Feb....also nothing taken out

(apart

from the dead fish). No new decorations or even plants. Very small

ammonia

spike (lowest reading) about 9 days ago along with a slightly higher pH
reading (which I'm not convinced I read properly). Rectified all of this

and

have not had any suspect readings since a week ago last saturday but

lost

another Mollie shortly after. No difference in how I treat the water -
follow the same routine on all of the tanks and there is no problem in

any

of the others.

The only thing that I have done differently, a couple of weeks ago, was

to

use a magnetic algae scraper. Haven't used it again as the fish kept

trying

to get between it and the glass so I decided it was too risky to use it

in

the tank.

It it is not disease or agression, I can only think that there is

something

toxic in the water that I don't test for. But if that is the case I

would

have expected them all to be carried off at once or at least within a

few

days but this has not happened.





Test Kit is the same one I use on all the tanks and know to be accurate.




Usually, bacterial disease overwhelm fish quickly as you're seeing.
Parasites take longer. I would start feeding an antibacterial food, if
you can find one. You also might remove your biofilter media, treat the
tank with 2 ppm potassium permanganate for four hours (there should be
instructions on the bottle for amount), add dechlorinator - the
permanganate should change from pink/purple to brown, and then put the
filter media back. This will reduce both bacterial and parasitic
populations in the tank.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Hi Elaine,

If it is bacterial I'm not quite sure how it got in there but it's worth a
shot. I'm not sure that we can get antibacterial food in the UK (I remember
someone posting this - Nikki I think) but I'll take a look.

With the Potassium Permanganate - do I do this with the fish in the tank or
do I move them for the four hours? I guess I could bag them and put them in
one of the other tanks to keep the temp up - not too much of a problem
though this time of year....Plus if the filter is out of the tank for the
four hours is there going to be a risk of a "mini cycle" when I put it
back....I'm relucant to hang it one of the other tanks because of not
knowing the problem...I guess I could put it in a bucket of tank water.

Thanks
Gill


Leave fish in the tank. Four hours shouldn't kill your filter.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

On Sun, 29 May 2005 23:27:16 +0100, "Gill Passman"
gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote:


"Derek Benson" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 29 May 2005 12:23:31 +0100, "Gill Passman"
gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote:

Hi All,
This is really a continuation from the Sick Mollie in my son's tank and
subsequent loss of two Mollies last weekend. I did my normal check this
morning and now one of the Rosy Barbs is on her way out. Checked the
water
pH 8 (normal for our tanks), 0 Ammonia and Nitrites and Nitrates are at
5.

No new fish added for months. Tank has been running since last August.

Tank is around 15UK galls. Current occupants are 1 mollie and 4 Rosy
Barbs
(around 10 inches of fish maximum). Plenty of plants. Water changes are
weekly 20-30%. We've had very few problems with this tank until now.

I just can't figure out what is going on here or what to do next. If the
remaining Rosy Barbs would be OK with Gouramis I suppose I could move
them
and then strip down the tank - this is the only thing I can think of for
now. But I hesitate because I don't want to risk infecting any of the
other
fish in the other tanks.

Does anyone have any clues as to what might be happening or what I can do
next to keep the remaining fish?

Thanks
Gill


If I try to rule out causes of death based on your info and the info
you've given to others: It doesn't appear to be a common parasite like
Ich, or velvet because you see these on the fish. Internal parasites,
worms or flagellates or whatever will usually show symptoms of the
fish getting thinner, wasting away, the feces might be weird, white
and stringy or no feces at all from the fish. So I rule out all of
these.

I rule out poisoning be it from ammonia or nitrate or metals or
something weird gotten into the tank because the fish should show
signs of poisoning: breathing faster, panting at the surface or at the
bottom of the tank.

So what's left? I think your pH is a bit high, but if others want to
say that it's fine for these fish I'll take their word for it. I don't
pay much attention to pH anymore because where I live it's 7.0 out of
the tap.

If it's bacterial in nature as Elaine suggests, the way it works, as I
understand it, is more or less like this. These bacteria which can
cause illness, Aeromonas or Mycobacterium or whatever their names are,
will always be present in your tank just like the bacteria you want in
the tank, the species which break down the ammonia and nitrites. These
evil bacteria will grow in numbers if the tank is generally not clean
enough. Keep these numbers down by vacuuming gravel and changing water
more frequently and diluting out the little buggers. The gravel in
this tank is vacuumed all the way to the bottom glass of the tank? I
ask because I think these bacteria live and multiply down there where
there is less oxygen in the water surrounding the gravel.

If this is a bacteria problem, I don't think these fish in the tank
will infect fish in other tanks. The bacteria in question are already
in the other tanks in certain numbers anyway. I think what I would do
is move all the fish in with the gouramis, and tear down this tank
completely and start it over. If you decide to do this, after you
remove fish and plants pour in some chlorine bleach and stir up the
gravel and wash it out the following day. Everything will be
killed/disinfected by the bleach.

-Derek

What you are saying is making total sense....apart from a slight question
mark over a certain nephew deciding to over feed...I cannot think of
anything else (he was here a few days before the Mollie decline and again a
couple of days ago). The gravel in this tank is not what I have in the
others - it is more a pea gravel rather than the finer stuff I normally have
so harder to vaccum....maybe there is something trapped in there - like
Hydrogen Sulphide.....

My son comes back tomorrow from his Dad's....he is already disallusioned and
thinking of giving up fish keeping based on the recent deaths....I hope I
can keep him hanging in there....he truly did love it....

Gill


If he was of the age, would you keep an ex girl friend around because
he once really liked her? Why not keep the tank for your own interest
and let him move on? In my fast growing years (as in height) I moved
through many interests. Here I am 60 years later picking up on one of
those interests.

dick

"Dick" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 May 2005 23:27:16 +0100, "Gill Passman"
gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote:


"Derek Benson" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 29 May 2005 12:23:31 +0100, "Gill Passman"
gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote:

Hi All,
This is really a continuation from the Sick Mollie in my son's tank
and
subsequent loss of two Mollies last weekend. I did my normal check
this
morning and now one of the Rosy Barbs is on her way out. Checked the
water
pH 8 (normal for our tanks), 0 Ammonia and Nitrites and Nitrates are
at
5.

No new fish added for months. Tank has been running since last August.

Tank is around 15UK galls. Current occupants are 1 mollie and 4 Rosy
Barbs
(around 10 inches of fish maximum). Plenty of plants. Water changes
are
weekly 20-30%. We've had very few problems with this tank until now.

I just can't figure out what is going on here or what to do next. If
the
remaining Rosy Barbs would be OK with Gouramis I suppose I could move
them
and then strip down the tank - this is the only thing I can think of
for
now. But I hesitate because I don't want to risk infecting any of the
other
fish in the other tanks.

Does anyone have any clues as to what might be happening or what I can
do
next to keep the remaining fish?

Thanks
Gill


If I try to rule out causes of death based on your info and the info
you've given to others: It doesn't appear to be a common parasite like
Ich, or velvet because you see these on the fish. Internal parasites,
worms or flagellates or whatever will usually show symptoms of the
fish getting thinner, wasting away, the feces might be weird, white
and stringy or no feces at all from the fish. So I rule out all of
these.

I rule out poisoning be it from ammonia or nitrate or metals or
something weird gotten into the tank because the fish should show
signs of poisoning: breathing faster, panting at the surface or at the
bottom of the tank.

So what's left? I think your pH is a bit high, but if others want to
say that it's fine for these fish I'll take their word for it. I don't
pay much attention to pH anymore because where I live it's 7.0 out of
the tap.

If it's bacterial in nature as Elaine suggests, the way it works, as I
understand it, is more or less like this. These bacteria which can
cause illness, Aeromonas or Mycobacterium or whatever their names are,
will always be present in your tank just like the bacteria you want in
the tank, the species which break down the ammonia and nitrites. These
evil bacteria will grow in numbers if the tank is generally not clean
enough. Keep these numbers down by vacuuming gravel and changing water
more frequently and diluting out the little buggers. The gravel in
this tank is vacuumed all the way to the bottom glass of the tank? I
ask because I think these bacteria live and multiply down there where
there is less oxygen in the water surrounding the gravel.

If this is a bacteria problem, I don't think these fish in the tank
will infect fish in other tanks. The bacteria in question are already
in the other tanks in certain numbers anyway. I think what I would do
is move all the fish in with the gouramis, and tear down this tank
completely and start it over. If you decide to do this, after you
remove fish and plants pour in some chlorine bleach and stir up the
gravel and wash it out the following day. Everything will be
killed/disinfected by the bleach.

-Derek

What you are saying is making total sense....apart from a slight question
mark over a certain nephew deciding to over feed...I cannot think of
anything else (he was here a few days before the Mollie decline and again
a
couple of days ago). The gravel in this tank is not what I have in the
others - it is more a pea gravel rather than the finer stuff I normally
have
so harder to vaccum....maybe there is something trapped in there - like
Hydrogen Sulphide.....

My son comes back tomorrow from his Dad's....he is already disallusioned
and
thinking of giving up fish keeping based on the recent deaths....I hope I
can keep him hanging in there....he truly did love it....

Gill


If he was of the age, would you keep an ex girl friend around because
he once really liked her? Why not keep the tank for your own interest
and let him move on? In my fast growing years (as in height) I moved
through many interests. Here I am 60 years later picking up on one of
those interests.

dick

I totally agree with you. I had a word with him about his tanks and
suggested even consolidating them into just one tank to make the maintenance
easier for him (me in reality). The answer I got was "you're just after one
of my tanks". He wants to keep going he's just fed up with losing the fish -
and I can't say that I blame him.

Here's hoping for happier times
Gill

"Mean_Chlorine" wrote in message
...
Thusly "Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk Spake Unto
All:

They always die during the night?

They always get ill during the night....they die later either in the next
day or the following day/night

OK, that narrows it down a bit.

Two obvious alternatives are oxygen depletion and attacks by other
animals, e.g. some catfish, some crayfish... I had otocinclus which
attacked and killed fish during the night some while back, for
instance, and oxygen levels drop during the night.

However, you've listed your fish, and you've not got any fish which
should be capable of attacking other fish, and fish recover quickly
from oxygen shortage.

The main remaining possibility I can think of is flexibacter disease.
It is extremely virulent, and may kill fish so quickly that they never
develop any symptoms. The most resistant fish will, however,
eventually develop symptoms: white fungus-like growths, and ulcers on
their bodies, often around the mouth.

But until you see any symptoms, flexibacter disease is just a wild
guess based on the absence of evidence.


The bloke in the LFS wondered if it could be temperature fluctuations -
we've had some strange weather over the last week or so - ranging from
extremely hot to cold or pleasantly warm (around 70F) today. I can't say
I've noticed any variations in the tank temp or the other one in that room.
I would expect the tank in the Conservatory to suffer rather than this one.
He sold me something called Liquisil General Tonic (Interpet) that is
supposed to reduce "background levels of of bacteria, fungus and parasites
in aquariums" and suggested a small quantity of salt as well. So off to give
it a try along with another water change.

Still no sign of symptoms on any of the other fish........

Gill Passman wrote:


The bloke in the LFS wondered if it could be temperature fluctuations -
we've had some strange weather over the last week or so - ranging from
extremely hot to cold or pleasantly warm (around 70F) today. I can't say
I've noticed any variations in the tank temp or the other one in that room.
I would expect the tank in the Conservatory to suffer rather than this one.
He sold me something called Liquisil General Tonic (Interpet) that is
supposed to reduce "background levels of of bacteria, fungus and parasites
in aquariums" and suggested a small quantity of salt as well. So off to give
it a try along with another water change.

Still no sign of symptoms on any of the other fish........



Hi,
I've kept fish in a modest way since 1963, with a 10-year break.

I began with W.T. Innes' "Exotic Aquarium Fishes". Then, starting the
hobby again in 1991, I borrowed a book by Stephen Spotte from the
library (Fish and invertebrate culture : water management in closed
systems?) that emphasized maintaining water quality through biological
filtration as a way of reducing stress and avoiding sick fish. Other
readings agreed with him, for example any issue of Aquarium Fish (they
never showed a picture of sick fish), and Tetra Press' "Aquariology
master volume one". The Internet, including newsgroups and "The Krib"
has also became a favourite reference, along with the "Aquarium Atlas"
by Riehl and Baensch.

Since doing reading such as above, I've tried to avoid medicating
aquariums. I simply use regular water changes, filtration (keep the old
media!) and modest stocking levels to manage my aquariums, and things
generally go well. I will admit to using formalin-based ich medication a
couple of times, and experimenting with plant nutrient additions.

It's a bit scary, the nasty possiblities ("flexibacter"!!) and harsh
treatments (Potassium permanganate) that are being suggested, for what
is likely a maintenance issue. Good, stable water quality and
temperature seem to be the recipe for successful aquarium keeping, along
with adequate feeding.

Here's to low-stress, satisfying aqaurium-keeping!

Steve