Getting the cycle to start...

Deborah J. Brown wrote:
On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:12:43 GMT, Elaine T
wrote:

snip

1) You're neutralizing ammonia from chloramines in your water and you
happen to have a Nessler test kit that still registers it. You need to
use a salicylate test kit (color change yellow to green) to test for
ammonia in water treated for chloramines or treated with AmQuel, Prime,
Ammo Lock or similar chemicals.


I'm using Aquarium Pharmaceuticals ammonia test. It turns from
clearish/yellow to green. Is that what you mean?

That's the right test to use. You're measuring free, toxic ammnonia.
I'm surprised your fish aren't somewhat lethargic at 1-1.5 ppm, unless
your tapwater is below pH 7.

And yes, I've been treating for cloromines with InstaChlor. Is this
causing a problem? And, for that matter, will the Ammo-lock cause
difficulties as well?

AHA! There's part of the trouble. Chloramine is a molecule formed from
chlorine and ammonia. InstaChlor breaks the chloramine bond and
detoxifies the resulting chlorine, but doesn't detoxify the remaining
ammonia. Every time you change water, you are adding more ammonia to
the tank. I'd recommend you switch to Kordon AmQuel or AmQuel+ for both
treating chloramines and detoxifying free ammonia. I've used AmQuel
myself for years and in agreement with Kordon's claims, it's never
caused a stuck cycle. I have no direct experience with Ammo-Lock so
even though it may be fine, I hesitate to recommend it.

2) You bought large fantails and the ammonia from three large fish is
simply overwhelming what biological filtration you have going.

They're about medium to small, as far as I can tell. My fish is the
largest and it's only about an inch and a half... two and a half(?)
inches if you include the tail.

Fantails have fat little bodies and put out a lot of waste, but you
should be fine for now. I would have only used one to cycle.

3) You don't mention a filter. If you don't have one, that's a problem.
If you do, it may be too small or you may be overcleaning it.

There's definitely a filter, a.. penquin (I think) or something like
that. I haven't touched it as of yet, since it's only just been put
in. It's one of the types with the filter and the wheel, if that means
anything.

Biowheels are great. That will help considerably once your tank gets
going. Penguins aerate the water nicely too, which is good for goldies.

snip

One other question, then. During this stage and until the cycle
establishes (dare I hope?) what is the maximum I should allow the
ammonia level to reach and how much of a water change should I
perform? For that matter, should nitrites ever decide to appear in
this tank, same question.

The safe amount of ammonia depends on the pH. The higher the pH, the
more toxic ammonia is. If it's neutral or below, 1 or even 2 ppm is
usually not enough to cause distress. Around pH 7.5 fish can start to
show signs of stress as low as 0.5 ppm. Most importantly, watch your fish.

Signs of ammonia toxicity are lethargy, gasping, or purplish gills. Fin
damage or bloody streaks in the fins can appear after a few days. If
you see toxicity, check your tank pH and tapwater pH. If they match, do
a 50% water change and add AmQuel. If the tapwater pH is higher by more
than 0.2 from the tank, you would make the ammonia more toxic with a big
water change, so change less water and rely more on AmQuel.

Nitrites are best kept below 2 ppm. Again lethargy and hard gilling are
typical signs of toxicity. Lower nitrites with generous water changes,
guided by your test kit. For example, if nitrite is suddenly at 3 ppm,
you'll need to change half the water, and probably more in a day or two.

While your tank is cycling, I'd recommend adding 1 tsp/gallon of
aquarium or pickling salt to the water. Salt helps counteract nitrite
poisoning. Add it to replacement water for your water changes until
you're through the nitrite part of the cycle and then allow it to fall.

Deborah - willing to wait as long as the fish are safe enough

As long as you're testing water and aware of what's happening in the
tank, the fish are safe. It sounds like they're in capable hands. Good
luck!

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:22:46 GMT, Elaine T
wrote:
On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:12:43 GMT, Elaine T
AHA! There's part of the trouble. Chloramine is a molecule formed from
chlorine and ammonia. InstaChlor breaks the chloramine bond and
detoxifies the resulting chlorine, but doesn't detoxify the remaining
ammonia. Every time you change water, you are adding more ammonia to
the tank. I'd recommend you switch to Kordon AmQuel or AmQuel+ for both
treating chloramines and detoxifying free ammonia. I've used AmQuel
myself for years and in agreement with Kordon's claims, it's never
caused a stuck cycle. I have no direct experience with Ammo-Lock so
even though it may be fine, I hesitate to recommend it.

Hmmm. I'll give it a try then, if the problem persists with the
ammo-lock in place. (I /am/ keeping an eye on the fish and their
behavior in the process, btw, so any sign of problems there will mean
a switch off.) I hesitate to keep changing methods before I've given a
method an appropriate time to work.

For what it's worth, I got a bottle of AmQuel today, so I'll be good
to go if there are problems.

Fantails have fat little bodies and put out a lot of waste, but you
should be fine for now. I would have only used one to cycle.

Yah. I based the number on the book, but now that I think about it, I
suspect the author was thinking of a larger tank. One thought I have
is to use the smaller, 2.5 gal tank I got for a sick tank to attempt
to start a cycle going without fish in it. /If/ the problem persists,
would this work?

Biowheels are great. That will help considerably once your tank gets
going. Penguins aerate the water nicely too, which is good for goldies.

Good. I also have a high flow of air bubbles going through. I can't
give them the large water surface needed for more oxygen but I can at
least provide that.

The safe amount of ammonia depends on the pH. The higher the pH, the
more toxic ammonia is. If it's neutral or below, 1 or even 2 ppm is
usually not enough to cause distress. Around pH 7.5 fish can start to
show signs of stress as low as 0.5 ppm. Most importantly, watch your fish.

Thanks! That helps. They're bouncing around exceedingly happily right
now. Though they're also grumbling that I don't feed 'em. Why do I
always end up with pets that want loads of food, even when it's not
good for them?

snip info on water changing and salt and stuff.

All good info and thanks again!

As long as you're testing water and aware of what's happening in the
tank, the fish are safe. It sounds like they're in capable hands. Good
luck!

Thanks!

Deborah

"Deborah J. Brown" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:22:46 GMT, Elaine T
wrote:
On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:12:43 GMT, Elaine T
AHA! There's part of the trouble. Chloramine is a molecule formed from
chlorine and ammonia. InstaChlor breaks the chloramine bond and
detoxifies the resulting chlorine, but doesn't detoxify the remaining
ammonia. Every time you change water, you are adding more ammonia to
the tank. I'd recommend you switch to Kordon AmQuel or AmQuel+ for both
treating chloramines and detoxifying free ammonia. I've used AmQuel
myself for years and in agreement with Kordon's claims, it's never
caused a stuck cycle. I have no direct experience with Ammo-Lock so
even though it may be fine, I hesitate to recommend it.

Hmmm. I'll give it a try then, if the problem persists with the
ammo-lock in place. (I /am/ keeping an eye on the fish and their
behavior in the process, btw, so any sign of problems there will mean
a switch off.) I hesitate to keep changing methods before I've given a
method an appropriate time to work.

For what it's worth, I got a bottle of AmQuel today, so I'll be good
to go if there are problems.

Fantails have fat little bodies and put out a lot of waste, but you
should be fine for now. I would have only used one to cycle.

Yah. I based the number on the book, but now that I think about it, I
suspect the author was thinking of a larger tank. One thought I have
is to use the smaller, 2.5 gal tank I got for a sick tank to attempt
to start a cycle going without fish in it. /If/ the problem persists,
would this work?

It should work - do research on fishless cycling. It basically involves
putting some ammonia in a properly set up tank and watching the ammonia go
down and then a nitrite spike, and finally some nitrates (nitrates are
better/safer than nitrites). Good luck and later!



Biowheels are great. That will help considerably once your tank gets
going. Penguins aerate the water nicely too, which is good for goldies.

Good. I also have a high flow of air bubbles going through. I can't
give them the large water surface needed for more oxygen but I can at
least provide that.

The safe amount of ammonia depends on the pH. The higher the pH, the
more toxic ammonia is. If it's neutral or below, 1 or even 2 ppm is
usually not enough to cause distress. Around pH 7.5 fish can start to
show signs of stress as low as 0.5 ppm. Most importantly, watch your
fish.

Thanks! That helps. They're bouncing around exceedingly happily right
now. Though they're also grumbling that I don't feed 'em. Why do I
always end up with pets that want loads of food, even when it's not
good for them?

snip info on water changing and salt and stuff.

All good info and thanks again!

As long as you're testing water and aware of what's happening in the
tank, the fish are safe. It sounds like they're in capable hands. Good
luck!

Thanks!

Deborah