bettas in plastic cups

"Steve" wrote in message
. ..
Thanks for sharing your betta experiences. I've had 3 male bettas in long
history of keeping aquariums, and two lasted less than a year for me. The
last one lasted perhaps 1.5 year, and it was in a planted, heated,
unfiltered 2 gallon plastic aquarium.

## Exactly my point. Housing them in a 1 to 2 gallon heated (and filtered)
tank is no guarantee they'll live out their full 4+ years. You are not the
first one to have this experience with bettas.

Stores housing/ selling bettas in plastic cups is a trend here in Canada;
its virtually impossible to find bettas in large aquariums in the stores.

## This is true. The better stores have those divided filtered tanks or 1
qt bowls to display them in. Most stores just leave them in the filthy bags
or put them in tiny ivy bowls - which they fail to clean or top-off.

All the betta discussion here lately prompted my
question. I'm really quite curious about the reasons behind plastic cup
bettas, although I think the fish stores expect customers to move their
bettas to something larger than a cup once they get home.

## I don't think they care as long as you have the money to pay for the
fish.........
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
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"Steve" wrote in message
. ..

Thanks, that's informative. As mentioned to another poster, I haven't had
great success with bettas. The single male bettas I kept in approx 15 gal
community aquariums with other small fish each lasted about 9mo to 1 year.
The one I recently kept by itself in a heated, planted, unfiltered 2
gallon aquarium lasted about 1.5 years. This raises a couple of questions:

Are bettas relatively old when shipped, and expected to live only another
year?

## Some dishonest breeders do sell off their old stock rather than uthanize
the unwanted fish. So yes, you can get an OLD fish if you are not careful.
Buy only smaller YOUNG males and females. You will learn to tell the
difference if you examine them closely. Young fish are smaller and their
fins shorter although their color should still be bright and clear.

Are bettas healthier and happier when kept by themselves?

## In my experience they are! There is no competition for food, and no
nipped fins among other things. Some are too aggressive to live in
community tanks. Some community tanks have too much current for bettas who
prefers calm water. Smaller faster fish may get most of the food and the
current wears down the betta, shortening it's life. Those that live the
longest of me have been in 1 quart to 2 gallon UNHEATED tanks. I believe
heating them to 80 F speeds their life processes and shortens their lives.
I can't prove this - it's just been my experience with the bettas I've had
over the years. I only heated the breeding tanks and young fry.

Might a male betta make a wise addition to my planted 90 gallon aquarium?

## You can add one but I would never put a valued betta in a community tank.
Others will disagree. Try it and see if it works for you. You can always
remove him if there's a problem. Not only can bettas be aggressive to
others but other fish sometimes nip at their long fins ruining their looks
and possibly causing a fungus or bacterial infection. I keep mine alone
but where they can see each other and see what's going on in this part of
the house. Mine are in everything from 1 qt bowls to a filtered, planted 2
gallon display tank. All have gravel and a few small water lettuce in their
homes. Someone e-mailed me that Dollar General sells clear glass cookie
jars that hold 1 gallon of water, with a plastic lid (can punch air holes)
for $1.50 each. I plan to check these out next week. If I can get them for
around that price where I live I'll move them all to the gallon cookie jars.
:-)

I suspect not, because it has two male blue gourami (possible
fighting?) and some fast swimmers such as zebra danios, dwarf neon
rainbowfish and one large "miscellaneous" rainbowfish that came in with
the dwarfs.

## Speaking for myself - I would rather keep valued bettas alone.

Steve
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Steve wrote:
With all the betta discussion lately, can someone tell me about bettas
in plastic cups? Why are they offered for sale this way? The losses must
be great and the fish don't look attractive for purchase.

Also, when do the fish go into the plastic cups? Is it for transport, or
are they raised in there? Thanks for any information.

Steve
Hi Steve.
Gill and Netmax couldn't have said it better! = )
Forget about adding male Bettas to a tank that has Gouramis init, as
they are too closely related and often the Betta will gets it butt
shredded. = (

You had asked in another post if they were relatively old when shipped.
That depends on the where the shops are getting them from.
From mass shippers, then yes. Sadly they are about a year or more,
fully grown males that are shipped out. Bettas average a lifespan of
2-3 yrs. Of course many can live beyond that, and some barely make it
over a year.
These mass bred Bettas are also becoming poor specimens. I've watched
this decline for over 30 years. My family had tanks when I was child
and always had male Bettas in them. I was a small child when I started
paying attention and started my own tanks when I was 11. Kept them ever
since and will hit the 28 yr mark in March.
I also bred veils for 19 of those yrs. The difference between what used
to be and what the stores (most) get now is so sad. Thin, sickly
looking veil, and now they're trashing Crowntails as well. Spindly
looking things.
Some shops get them directly from specialty breeders and the quality is
obvious.
Even the veils they get it from these breeders are like what they
should be. Like so many years ago. Robust, "meaty" bodies, full finnage
with lovely body shapes that are true to the standard.
The Crowntails are knock outs! Once you see the difference between a
mass bred CT and a quality breeder's CT's.....you'll know what I'm
talking about and you'll never even consider buying anything else.
You'll be as spoiled as me. = )
Often when a shop gets them from a particular breeder, they tend to be
younger fish...under a year. Usually anywhere from 6-8 months of age.
Some can even give you all the info on that fish. Everything from spawn
/ hatch date, to the family tree.This of course depends on the breeder.

You also asked if they are happier or healthier when kept by
themselves.
This depends on the individual Betta.
Each has it's own personality. They all have their likes and dislikes.
Many get along just peachy with fish like fancy male Guppies, and some
do not.
Some are fine with having non nippy tank mates, and some are not.
Some are fine as long as the tank is large enough and has enough
plants, rocks or a cave.
Some are fine being housed with the opposite sex, some are not.
Females can be just as aggressive as males can be. Again, it all
depends on their individual personalites.
To say they would be happier or healthier by themselves, I'd have to
say no.
These are social fish that have a hierarchy. Just like a dog or wolf
pack. They need others or they suffer mentally.
For single male tanks, I house them next to one another. I never leave
them without a "flare buddy" when in single tanks.
Some prefer certain males as flare buddies and some simply don't care
for others.
I've had males that simply would not tolerate a certain male and flare
constantly, never stopping. These I would change around and find them a
flare buddy that they would flare with when they wanted to and then
rest when they felt like doing that.
Some I have only flare at one another when the lights go on and at
feeding time. Other than that they ignore each other.
I've had some become quite bored with one another and not flare at all.
That's no good as they actually need the stimulation and exercise.
I had one male, and this wasn't too long ago either, actually become
depressed and lethargic when his best buddy was moved (I like to swith
them around now and then so they don't become bored with each other). I
thought he was sick at first. Nope...he was depressed. I put his best
buddy back and he popped back to life in an instant.
I was amazed. That's when I found out they can be depressed and have
"best buddies".
Being that they need daily stimulation, I would have to say no...they
wouldn't be healthier by themselves....but that doesn't always mean to
have tank mates inside the tank.
Now when it comes to having them in larger tanks, absolutely try out
certain safe tank mates for them.
When it comes to females, house several together at least. They quickly
form a hierarchy. That right there tells you that they are not meant to
be solitary creatures by nature.
Keeping a male in with females will depend on tank size and the
individual personalities of each and every fish.
A female Betta can rip the pants right off a male too. Sex plays no
part in aggression.
Some are overly aggressive and some are just fine together.
You just always need a back up tank in case it doesn't work out.
When adding Bettas together (either several females or females and one
male), there will always be some posturing, chasing and fin nipping at
first. This is normal betta behavior.
They need to figure out their "pecking order" (hierarchy). There will
be the alpha...sex plays no part here and neither does body size, all
the way down to the omega (lowest in rank). You will see a little fin
damage at first. If there is relentless chasing and nipping or it gets
vicious, then the aggressor needs to be removed.
Many males are so excited when added to a tank with females that they
chase then all over the tank at first. This usually settles down
quickly and they soon ignore each other.
Same goes for "safe" tank mates.
Safe meaning non nippers, and fast moving fish, or other very
territorial fish.
Neon or Cardinal Tetras are fine, but most other Tetras are not. Same
goes for the Barb family. Danios are just too fast moving.
Some have luck with the general live bearers, but some are just crappy
tank mates and nip or harrass a male Betta to exhaustion.
Cichlids are out with the exception of some Angelfish. Again, they have
individual personalities as well and some will nip a Bettas fins, and
some Bettas will nip up the long ventrals of the Angels. I personally
house my female Bettas, and a resident male with my non breeding
Angelfish. Only rarely is there nipping happening and then whomever is
doing it is housed differently.
So you see there are many options with Bettas.
Just remember, the larger the tank, the better!
For single males, I love the Eclipse 3 gallon.
For tank mates in these 3 gallon tanks, I like either a couple
Otocinclus cats, or a pair of African Dwarf Frogs,or 3-4 Pygmy Cories.

Steve wrote:
Gill Passman wrote:

Steve wrote:

With all the betta discussion lately, can someone tell me about
bettas in plastic cups? Why are they offered for sale this way? The
losses must be great and the fish don't look attractive for purchase.

Also, when do the fish go into the plastic cups? Is it for transport,
or are they raised in there? Thanks for any information.

Steve




IMO if you are buying any fish you need to provide them with adequate
and suitable accomodation as you would any pet.....I would never keep
a fish such as a betta in anything other than a heated, filtered 5
gall (UK) tank....it is not possible to buy anything smaller at the
reputable places I shop....that being said I do understand that bettas
can be kept successfully in smaller, filtered, heated tanks quite
happily - although I would think that probably a 2 gall would be the
minimum....anything less and without the adequate provisions for what
is a tropical fish IMO is cruel on a long term basis - afterall they
need room to swim. Now obviously when breeding bettas a 2 gall tank
for each of the fry is impractical which is why I believe most
reputable breeders would go for a heated room therefore ensuring that
the fish are kept at the right temps and smaller containers with more
frequent water changes - in most cases, other than the very committed
hobbyiest breeding these fish is a business and it is in the breeders
interest for the fish to survive...at least til they hit the shops...

Now, I don't breed bettas, although I do have two males that both live
in their 20L (5UK gall) tanks....I would never consider keeping them
in a cup or small bowl...to me, it just doesn't seem right....

There is a trend, (horrible market), for selling bettas in
vases...they are condemed to living in a small vase with a non-aquatic
plant taking up most of the air space (so they had limited real air to
breath). I believe the advice was that they would live on the plant
roots - but bettas are carnivorous....the idea as far as I can see is
that these fish were treated as ornaments rather than live
animals....as expendable as a bunch of flowers....what you are
describing very much smacks of this type of mentality...."look you can
own a fish that can survive in a cup" - absolute rubbish - and by your
question I can very much see that you are of the same opinion....

All of this is based on my research, what I have heard from other more
experienced betta keepers, the contentment of my bettas in their 5
gall tanks and a gut feeling that it is just so, so very wrong to
provide any living creature with cramped conditions where they just
survive rather than have any quality of life....hey, ho JMO

Gill



Gill,
Thanks for sharing your betta experiences. I've had 3 male bettas in
long history of keeping aquariums, and two lasted less than a year for
me. The last one lasted perhaps 1.5 year, and it was in a planted,
heated, unfiltered 2 gallon plastic aquarium.

Stores housing/ selling bettas in plastic cups is a trend here in
Canada; its virtually impossible to find bettas in large aquariums in
the stores. All the betta discussion here lately prompted my
question. I'm really quite curious about the reasons behind plastic cup
bettas, although I think the fish stores expect customers to move their
bettas to something larger than a cup once they get home.
Steve

Hi Steve,

I've never seen bettas on sale in the UK other than in tanks....maybe
it's the places I go to....

Gill

"Gill Passman" wrote in message
news:4385867f$0$38041
I've never seen bettas on sale in the UK other than in tanks....maybe it's
the places I go to....
===========================
Here in the USA most are sold in either those small cups or the new larger
16 oz. size.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

If the asians can use tin cans etc to rasie em in a jar would be
heaven to a betta......I seen backyard breeders, mainly those that
rasied and sold them for fighting, when I made a few trips to Thailand
and some of their bettas were extremely nice.....but most were not
bred to export nor bred to obtain colorations, just to fight. They
used predominately aluminum soda cans and old tin cans for their
containers, but changed water every day.
--
\\\|///
( @ @ )
-----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------


oooO
---------( )----Oooo----------------
\ ( ( )
\_) ) /
(_/
The original frugal ponder! Koi-ahoi mates....

barbs eat betta fins dude.


dddd wrote in message ...
i keep mine in a 120 with tiger barbs and a few other aggressive fish.
the key is to grow plants to the top so they always have safe spots
and can swim unnoticed. occasionally when exploring you may see your
betta rush back to his plants. until the plants grow in you may hang a
large ordiment from the top, which also gives your betta good
protection in community tanks.

On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 20:15:11 -0500, Steve wrote:

Might a male betta make a wise addition to my planted 90 gallon
aquarium? I suspect not, because it has two male blue gourami (possible
fighting?) and some fast swimmers such as zebra danios, dwarf neon
rainbowfish and one large "miscellaneous" rainbowfish that came in with
the dwarfs.

Steve


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Ditto on the life expectency related to temperature. My bettas in
heated, 75 degree tanks, lived about 2 years from when I hatched them
from eggs. My girlfriend's, who were all in an unheated 10 gallon
tank, are all still alive. The mom of the bettas is now in her 4th
year in a 1 gallon unheated tank (68F/20C) and still quite active and
healthy. She's been fed only four betta pellets per day for most of
her life, which at first I thought was too little, but who am I to say
since hers has outlived most of my current fish.

Keep them separate and unheated for longer life. I personally think
they are fine in cups for short periods of time (ie. in a fish store),
and the liveliness and longevity of my gf's is testiment that smallish
1 gallon tanks are fine.

I keep females in a community tank now, and the hardest part is keeping
the other fish from stealing their pellets (which is a problem, since
my bettas don't eat flakes; only pellets).

tim

wrote in message
oups.com...
Ditto on the life expectency related to temperature. My bettas in
heated, 75 degree tanks, lived about 2 years from when I hatched them
from eggs. My girlfriend's, who were all in an unheated 10 gallon
tank, are all still alive. The mom of the bettas is now in her 4th
year in a 1 gallon unheated tank (68F/20C) and still quite active and
healthy.

## See! I have heard this before from other bettaphiles. I have no idea
why some people believe they need so much heat to thrive. It just isn't
true. :-)

She's been fed only four betta pellets per day for most of
her life, which at first I thought was too little, but who am I to say
since hers has outlived most of my current fish.

## Exactly. Each fish and each fish's living conditions are different.
Since hers are unheated that is probably enough food whereas a heated betta,
with a speeded up metabolism, would need more food. I've been looking the
thermometer in the betta bowls on the windowsill. They range from 72F in
the morning to 76 later in the day when the filtered sunlight hits the jars.
Mine are fed twice a day using a variety of dried betta foods. I may buy
them some frozen glassworms and bloodworms on my next trip to the pet store.
I know my Mickey Mouse platties would love them as well. :-)

Keep them separate and unheated for longer life. I personally think
they are fine in cups for short periods of time (ie. in a fish store),
and the liveliness and longevity of my gf's is testiment that smallish
1 gallon tanks are fine.

## I assure they are - as long as they are not neglected, but changed
regularly. I use aged water to do this so as not to kill off the nitrifying
bacteria in the gravel and on the water lettuce.

I keep females in a community tank now, and the hardest part is keeping
the other fish from stealing their pellets (which is a problem, since
my bettas don't eat flakes; only pellets).

## This is another reason I stopped keeping bettas in community tanks years
ago. They never really thrived as the other fish always beat them to the
choicest morsels of food, there was the current from the filters, the
harassment by the other fish who would take nips at even the female bettas
fins etc.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

wrote in message
oups.com...
Ditto on the life expectency related to temperature. My bettas in
heated, 75 degree tanks, lived about 2 years from when I hatched them
from eggs. My girlfriend's, who were all in an unheated 10 gallon
tank, are all still alive. The mom of the bettas is now in her 4th
year in a 1 gallon unheated tank (68F/20C) and still quite active and
healthy. She's been fed only four betta pellets per day for most of
her life, which at first I thought was too little, but who am I to say
since hers has outlived most of my current fish.

That's an interesting observation. It lacks the scientific rigour that I
always like to look for, but it's rare to see controlled experiments on
fish, (especially longevity). In theory, longevity can be decreased by
increasing the temperature (higher metabolism), but this assumes all
other factors are equal, and you are moving away from their optimal
temperature range. If my texts are correct and their range is 70-90F,
breeds at 80F, then they are more likely to be outside their optimal
range in an unheated tank than in an overheated tank. Another variable
is the lower O2 levels in small heated tanks, but again the Betta throws
a wrench into this with their labyrinth organ. I wonder if genetics,
maintenance and not over-feeding are more critical to longevity than the
water's temperature.

Keep them separate and unheated for longer life. I personally think
they are fine in cups for short periods of time (ie. in a fish store),

I agree, but this time from experience. Two weeks in a cup didn't seem
to phase them, and while many do very well in a community tank, many also
do very well in relative isolation.

and the liveliness and longevity of my gf's is testiment that smallish
1 gallon tanks are fine.

I wouldn't think the words longevity could be used in the same sentence
as a 1g tank when talking about GF. Goldfish are very long lived, 10-20
years is not unusual. I cannot imagine that occuring in a small
container. Actually this has now become illegal in several parts of the
world.

I keep females in a community tank now, and the hardest part is keeping
the other fish from stealing their pellets (which is a problem, since
my bettas don't eat flakes; only pellets).

I rather like female Bettas. Basically identical in personality, colors
& behavior, but tolerant of each other in the right set-up. Probably
under-rated as compared to the males. I used to keep 20-30 of them in a
planted 60g.
--
www.NetMax.tk

tim