Future scenario for the home aquarium.

NetMax wrote:
"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...

In article ,
Gail Futoran wrote:

"NetMax" wrote in message
...

A possible scenario for the evolution of the aquarium:

[snip]

If we look at the trends, despite the weight, cost & space, aquariums
are
slowly getting larger, however this makes their best location to be
concrete (basement) away from prime viewing area (living room).

Reading other posts, it seems many people don't
have basements! If I had one, it would become
a family/play room, hence would be a perfect
location for a fish wall. Here in TX, basements
are a rarity.

A jackhammer and a few day laborours changes that. The house I live
in was built in 1860 or something, by an English Colonel. He'd never
heard of a basemnt either, that or the solid rock it's built on
deterred him somewhat.

From an engineering perspective, thisis not insurmountable, but
it's not conventional in the way you can, say, walk into a bank
and get a loan to build a miniature Marineland of the Pacific in
your basement that doesn't exist. Yet.

What you could do though is cut a great whacking hole in the floor
and build a foundation on the ground, which is typically giong to
be 2-3 feet lower than the gorund floor.

Now, if you make this bugger big enough the thermal mass becomes
an intersting property.


At the risk of getting too far OT from aquaria, I have wondered what volume
of subterrainian water would be required to cool and heat a home to an
average comfortable temperature. Given my latitude (Canada), I don't think
it's practical, but a bit further south might have possibilities. Build a
road to the edge of a short steep rockface (coastline, riverfront etc),
build a foundation to hold some water (200,000g?), grade with enough earth
for insulating the exposed side, add house on top. You would need some
energy to run the heat pumps, but rockface/coastlines are sometimes suitable
for a combination of wind power and solar (divided between electricity
generation for batteries and water heating to supplement the thermal energy
of the under-house sump.

An interesting angle is that the water would either need to be chemically
treated to be inert, or you could intentionally incorporate a complete
nitrogen cycle (fishies ). I don't know which would be more practical,
but I know which I would investigate first ;~), though I suspect the
temperature range would not be compatibility to fish.

lol, this should lay to rest any niggley doubts about my being completely
wonkers, - but I still have lucid moments and I'm generally helpful &
harmless ;~).

LOL - you bonkers - never.... :-) and as for harmless!!!! I still have a
feeling that the 4 footer will get filled with Neons in its next
incarnation which is a thought firmly planted in my head by you g

"generally helpful" - most certainly and always appreciated.... :-)

Gill

"Koi-lo" wrote in message
...

"NetMax" wrote in message
...
lol, this should lay to rest any niggley doubts about my being completely
wonkers, - but I still have lucid moments and I'm generally helpful &
harmless ;~).
========================
LOL! :-D I was starting to wonder. Since you're as much a fish-addict
as I am, how come you don't have at least one pond?

Oh, I would if I could, but I can't. My house is built into the side of a
hill, so the only flat ground I have is weeping tiles on one side (septic
tank), and the bottom of my creek on the other. I've thought of building a
weir into the creek, to make a pond, but during snowmelt, the creek gets
very active, and it would flush all the fish into the river :-(.
Fortunately I have a few friends with ponds, so I can live vicariously
through them. One in particular has a 20,000g pond in their small backyard,
and they annually construct a tent the size of a small house to cover it for
the winter. The 'tent' has always been a different design (polyethylene
sheet and grey PVC piping this year), testing against the elements (snow
load, wind and freezing rain), so they haven't settled on a permanent design
yet. They write articles for fish magazines, so they get stuff to test and
often keep (good gig). To them, I'm not a fish-addict, I'm quite normal
;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk

--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastada...ium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

"Koi-lo" wrote in message
...

"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...
You can buy heated pads for mouse cages and similar from pet shops...
=============================
Yes, thanks... but I always have 6 to 8 betta bowls in a row and want
something like an unobtrusive strip to run along the windowsill. There's
no
way I can afford that many little heaters to go under each one. Also,
the
wires would be ugly and in the way.

What you really need is a solar powered micro ground source geothermal
unit for your winddow. A little teeny tiny one.
=======================
Nah, someone needs to invent a heat TAPE for those with bowls or tanks in
a row. The reptile folks would probably buy it as well as the fish
people. I could be sold in several lengths to suit different needs.

Hrrm. Don't want to totally rain on your idea, but I don't think it will
be realized. Heat tapes (like those used to prevent metal pipes from
freezing) are notoriously difficult to (affordably) control accurately
enough to prevent large temperature swings. They're either on and pumping
out the BTU's, or their off and cooling rapidly. I don't think they'll ever
make a good basis as an affordable means of maintaining small volume water
temperature in a limited range.

In the chemical industry, they have big, wide heat tapes which can be put
onto drums;
http://www.bascousa.com/store/item.a...42&ITEM_ID=128

which are rarely good for anything. They heat indiscriminately, cause a
very hot point to develop where they are in contact with the drum, and lack
any means of circulating the material while heating (convection currents are
notoriously slow to transfer heat in a fluid medium). Your betta bowls will
behave similarly; without water flow/agitation, you'll have a uninhabitable
hot bottom (note: also where any settled decomp matter will be residing), a
tropical middle, and a vastly cooler upper strata. You thought temperature
swings are bad when they occur too quickly..? Three guesses as to what
happens when you have eight or more degrees of temperature change _within
the 2 gallon bowl itself_... :-)

DaveZ
Atom Weaver

"NetMax" wrote in message
...
At the risk of getting too far OT from aquaria, I have wondered what
volume of subterrainian water would be required to cool and heat a home to
an average comfortable temperature. Given my latitude (Canada), I don't
think it's practical, but a bit further south might have possibilities.
Build a road to the edge of a short steep rockface (coastline, riverfront
etc), build a foundation to hold some water (200,000g?), grade with enough
earth for insulating the exposed side, add house on top. You would need
some energy to run the heat pumps, but rockface/coastlines are sometimes
suitable for a combination of wind power and solar (divided between
electricity generation for batteries and water heating to supplement the
thermal energy of the under-house sump.

An interesting angle is that the water would either need to be chemically
treated to be inert, or you could intentionally incorporate a complete
nitrogen cycle (fishies ).
Meh. Just coat the wetted parts with teflon, or make them out of
titanium...

I don't know which would be more practical, but I know which I would
investigate first ;~), though I suspect the temperature range would not be
compatibility to fish.

lol, this should lay to rest any niggley doubts about my being completely
wonkers, - but I still have lucid moments and I'm generally helpful &
harmless ;~).
--

Wonkers? The only thing you're missing is financial backing;

http://www.makai.com/renewable_energy/swac.htm

It seems someone was Wonkers about six years ahead of you...

Seawater AC project has earned a $1.6million grant for a feasability study
at the University of Hawaii. Note; this is a _lot_ easier model, as the
water doesn't need to be pumped nearly so far (nor do you need to drill deep
into bedrock, etc).

Regards
DaveZ
Atom Weaver

Richard Sexton wrote:
You can buy heated pads for mouse cages and similar from pet shops...

=============================
Yes, thanks... but I always have 6 to 8 betta bowls in a row and want
something like an unobtrusive strip to run along the windowsill. There's no
way I can afford that many little heaters to go under each one. Also, the
wires would be ugly and in the way.


What you really need is a solar powered micro ground source geothermal
unit for your winddow. A little teeny tiny one.

ROFLMAO! By the way, it's good to have you around again, Richard.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

fish lover wrote:

snip

I would pay for fish tank that is about 2 fee wide but the whole side
of my wall. I'm talking about 10 to 15 feet long, 9 to 10 feet tall
depending on the size of your wall. Somehow we have to get the oyxgen
in the tank (like a CO 2 injector) so it can support more fish with
the relitively small surface area. Imaging that you come home and the
sight of a whole wall with swiming Discus! I would pay really good
money for that! Water change needs to be automated for sure :-)

Out of curiosity, how would you maintain the bottom of a 9-10 foot deep
tank? I think public aquaria usually have scuba divers scrape algae and
clean the big tanks, but they're usually more than 2 feet wide.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

NetMax wrote:

snip


I think the bottom line with many of us, is that we like to tinker. We
walk by the tank, and make a note to do something, or just do it (move a
rock, clean some algae, feed the fish, replant something, pull some dead
leaves out, watch some new behaviour, check how the fry are doing etc
etc). The suggested scenario took away your ability to tinker.

Let me give an analogy. What you suggest is rather like putting a few
dogs into a big, grassy field with some cameras. (Assume their needs
for shelter and running room are met.) You would feed and water them
daily and clean up as necessary, but that would be the extent of the
interaction. On your living room wall would be a projection of the dogs
so you can see them play, sleep and hang out. The dogs would be
perfectly fine and your chores would be lighter, but the setup is not
the same as having a pet dog at your feet.

I think most of us think of our fish as pets. You've mentioned feeding
your fish with automatic feeders so you see more of the natural
behavior. In contrast, I enjoy watching my angel fish doing his little
"wiggle dance" at the front of the tank when I come into the room. All
he's after is a handout, but the interaction is still fun. Think of how
popular Oscars are because of their pet-like qualities!

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

Curt wrote:
What kinda stupid message is this? Did you write this tripe out of
boredom or you are a little off center? Nothing is ever going to change
as you predict. People will always have "normal" home aquariums. Yes
there are some people that go to extremes but the normal owner will
realize their litiations and have "normal" setups. Next time save your
predictions and do something more productive and constructive.......


Why don't you post something productive and constructive yourself
instead of flaming one of our most active members? I've never seen you
post, and you obviously don't even lurk much.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

"Elaine T" wrote in message
t...
fish lover wrote:

snip

I would pay for fish tank that is about 2 fee wide but the whole side
of my wall. I'm talking about 10 to 15 feet long, 9 to 10 feet tall
depending on the size of your wall. Somehow we have to get the oyxgen
in the tank (like a CO 2 injector) so it can support more fish with
the relitively small surface area. Imaging that you come home and the
sight of a whole wall with swiming Discus! I would pay really good
money for that! Water change needs to be automated for sure :-)

Out of curiosity, how would you maintain the bottom of a 9-10 foot deep
tank? I think public aquaria usually have scuba divers scrape algae
and clean the big tanks, but they're usually more than 2 feet wide.

Oh oh oh, I know the answer ) (push over fishlover ;~), at least I have
an idea for it. There is an indent in the bottom of the
tub/mold/tank/container. Ordinarily, nothing is in there, but it could
be large enough to have a potted plant or some type of structure with
caves. When you have to do serious maintenance, you remove anything
which is in this indent (or false bottom), and drop the water level
(taking all the fish with it into this section).

The drawbacks are that live plants on the upper levels would be exposed
to air (so they would have to be robust or don't have live plants in the
upper tiers), and you need a sizable holding tank to hold the displaced
water until it is returned. In fish rooms, I've seen these holding tanks
attached to the ceiling. For other installations, (large built-in
aquariums), the holding tank could be located in another room (preferably
directly above or below the main tank).

Alternately, use the holding tank, but no indent in the main tank and
never take the water down too low.

sorry fishlover, my enthusiasm curbs poorly, your turn.
--
www.NetMax.tk

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com

"David Zopf" wrote in message
. ..
Hrrm. Don't want to totally rain on your idea, but I don't think it will
be realized. Heat tapes (like those used to prevent metal pipes from
freezing) are notoriously difficult to (affordably) control accurately
enough to prevent large temperature swings. They're either on and pumping
out the BTU's, or their off and cooling rapidly. I don't think they'll
ever make a good basis as an affordable means of maintaining small volume
water temperature in a limited range.

The ON or OFF thing did cross my mind. That would be unlike the old
fluorescent strip lights on 12 hours a day. The temp did drop at night as
in nature but was on all day - not on and off, on and off.


In the chemical industry, they have big, wide heat tapes which can be put
onto drums;
http://www.bascousa.com/store/item.a...42&ITEM_ID=128

I'm picturing a teeny tiny one wrapped around a betta bowl. ;-) That's
not practical though.

which are rarely good for anything. They heat indiscriminately, cause a
very hot point to develop where they are in contact with the drum, and
lack any means of circulating the material while heating (convection
currents are notoriously slow to transfer heat in a fluid medium). Your
betta bowls will behave similarly; without water flow/agitation, you'll
have a uninhabitable hot bottom (note: also where any settled decomp
matter will be residing), a tropical middle, and a vastly cooler upper
strata. You thought temperature swings are bad when they occur too
quickly..? Three guesses as to what happens when you have eight or more
degrees of temperature change _within the 2 gallon bowl itself_... :-)

That shoots that idea down the toilet........... LOL!
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastada...ium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o