goldfish question

"Tynk" wrote in message
oups.com...

Koi-lo wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
\ Your tank is really too small for goldfish.
\ ~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Koi-Lo wrote:

Goldfish get large, up to 12" under excellent conditions so a 3g
tank is
much to small. Can you replace this with a 10g tank?

Depending on the type of feeder, some can reach 16".
AND, knowing that why would you recommend them getting a 10g tank, just
to have to buy another larger tank later on??

Most people will be willing to buy a 10 g tank. Few will pull out the money
for a 20Long for a 25¢ feeder. If the feeder lives long enough to outgrow
the 10g, they're usually willing to go for the 20L because they're attached
to the fish by then. :-)

Feeder Goldies are the ones that should have 15-20 gallons PER
Goldfish.

See above. Few survive that long for a variety of reasons, as you have to
realize.

The smaller, fancy types are the ones that can be stuffed into a 10g by
it's self with no other tank mates.

That's not a real good situation either. Some fancies can get pretty large
and bulky. A 10 would be pushing it. A 10g for a small feeder would be
fine for awhile.

Your statement floored me, as you are supposed to be so knowledgeable
in Goldfish.

Be floored! ;-) If one in 50 of these feeders survive to need more than
a 10g tank I'd be FLOORED.

--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
Troll Information:
http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Koi-lo wrote:
"Tynk" wrote in message
oups.com...

Koi-lo wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
\ Your tank is really too small for goldfish.
\ ~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Koi-Lo wrote:

Goldfish get large, up to 12" under excellent conditions so a 3g
tank is
much to small. Can you replace this with a 10g tank?

Depending on the type of feeder, some can reach 16".
AND, knowing that why would you recommend them getting a 10g tank, just
to have to buy another larger tank later on??

Most people will be willing to buy a 10 g tank. Few will pull out the money
for a 20Long for a 25¢ feeder. If the feeder lives long enough to outgrow
the 10g, they're usually willing to go for the 20L because they're attached
to the fish by then. :-)

Feeder Goldies are the ones that should have 15-20 gallons PER
Goldfish.

See above. Few survive that long for a variety of reasons, as you have to
realize.

The smaller, fancy types are the ones that can be stuffed into a 10g by
it's self with no other tank mates.

That's not a real good situation either. Some fancies can get pretty large
and bulky. A 10 would be pushing it. A 10g for a small feeder would be
fine for awhile.

Your statement floored me, as you are supposed to be so knowledgeable
in Goldfish.

Be floored! ;-) If one in 50 of these feeders survive to need more than
a 10g tank I'd be FLOORED.

--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
Troll Information:
http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Most people will be willing to buy a 10 g tank. Few will pull out
the money
for a 20Long for a 25¢ feeder. If the feeder lives long enough to outgrow
the 10g, they're usually willing to go for the 20L because they're attached
to the fish by then. :-)

Hmm.....
So in your opinion, it's better to tell them incorrect information at
first...and then after they think they're doing fine for the fish only
to find out later on that they need another larger tank, because they
weren't told this in the first place?
Sorry. To me that's very wrong. It's not fair to the fish or to the
keeper.
Tell them the truth in the first place!
As for Goldie feeders not living long enoug to outgrow a 10g
tank...that's usually from the poor water conditions they were being
kept in. If done right, they'll be living great for nearly 20 yrs in
their large tank.
I have talked to hundreds of folks that have been told a 10g tank is
fine. Then the fish out grows it quickly and they're ticked off that
they weren't told the right info in the first place...when they could
have just bought the right tank before. Instead, they have to purchase
another set up. Too often people do not want to do that! They end up
leaving the poor fish in the tiny tank till it dies when they could've
had the right set up in the first place.
Telling somebody incorrect information, even if it's *just for now* is
bullcrap!
If you are taking on the responsibility to give out advice, it should
at least be correct, and fully, not just partly correct.
If you tell a person a 10g will be fine for that feeder Goldie...add to
it right then and there that they will have to purchase a much larger
set up in the near future. At least that gives them the chance to buy
the right set up the first time, or it prepares them for the fact they
this tank is only temporary.
I cannot understand why don't ge that.

Tynk wrote:
Koi-lo wrote:
"Tynk" wrote in message
oups.com...

Koi-lo wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
\ Your tank is really too small for goldfish.
\ ~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Koi-Lo wrote:

Goldfish get large, up to 12" under excellent conditions so a 3g
tank is
much to small. Can you replace this with a 10g tank?

Depending on the type of feeder, some can reach 16".
AND, knowing that why would you recommend them getting a 10g tank, just
to have to buy another larger tank later on??

Most people will be willing to buy a 10 g tank. Few will pull out the money
for a 20Long for a 25¢ feeder. If the feeder lives long enough to outgrow
the 10g, they're usually willing to go for the 20L because they're attached
to the fish by then. :-)

Feeder Goldies are the ones that should have 15-20 gallons PER
Goldfish.

See above. Few survive that long for a variety of reasons, as you haveto
realize.

The smaller, fancy types are the ones that can be stuffed into a 10g by
it's self with no other tank mates.

That's not a real good situation either. Some fancies can get pretty large
and bulky. A 10 would be pushing it. A 10g for a small feeder would be
fine for awhile.

Your statement floored me, as you are supposed to be so knowledgeable
in Goldfish.

Be floored! ;-) If one in 50 of these feeders survive to need more than
a 10g tank I'd be FLOORED.

--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
Troll Information:
http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Most people will be willing to buy a 10 g tank. Few will pull out
the money
for a 20Long for a 25¢ feeder. If the feeder lives long enough to outgrow
the 10g, they're usually willing to go for the 20L because they're attached
to the fish by then. :-)

Hmm.....
So in your opinion, it's better to tell them incorrect information at
first...and then after they think they're doing fine for the fish only
to find out later on that they need another larger tank, because they
weren't told this in the first place?
Sorry. To me that's very wrong. It's not fair to the fish or to the
keeper.
Tell them the truth in the first place!
As for Goldie feeders not living long enoug to outgrow a 10g
tank...that's usually from the poor water conditions they were being
kept in. If done right, they'll be living great for nearly 20 yrs in
their large tank.
I have talked to hundreds of folks that have been told a 10g tank is
fine. Then the fish out grows it quickly and they're ticked off that
they weren't told the right info in the first place...when they could
have just bought the right tank before. Instead, they have to purchase
another set up. Too often people do not want to do that! They end up
leaving the poor fish in the tiny tank till it dies when they could've
had the right set up in the first place.
Telling somebody incorrect information, even if it's *just for now* is
bullcrap!
If you are taking on the responsibility to give out advice, it should
at least be correct, and fully, not just partly correct.
If you tell a person a 10g will be fine for that feeder Goldie...add to
it right then and there that they will have to purchase a much larger
set up in the near future. At least that gives them the chance to buy
the right set up the first time, or it prepares them for the fact they
this tank is only temporary.
I cannot understand why don't ge that.
I cannot understand why don't ge that.
That was supposed to be:
I cannot understand why you don't get that.

"Tynk" wrote in message
oups.com...

Koi-lo wrote:
"Tynk" wrote in message
oups.com...

Koi-lo wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
\ Your tank is really too small for goldfish.
\ ~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Koi-Lo wrote:

Goldfish get large, up to 12" under excellent conditions so a 3g
tank is
much to small. Can you replace this with a 10g tank?

Depending on the type of feeder, some can reach 16".
AND, knowing that why would you recommend them getting a 10g tank, just
to have to buy another larger tank later on??

Most people will be willing to buy a 10 g tank. Few will pull out the
money
for a 20Long for a 25¢ feeder. If the feeder lives long enough to outgrow
the 10g, they're usually willing to go for the 20L because they're
attached
to the fish by then. :-)

Feeder Goldies are the ones that should have 15-20 gallons PER
Goldfish.

See above. Few survive that long for a variety of reasons, as you have to
realize.

The smaller, fancy types are the ones that can be stuffed into a 10g by
it's self with no other tank mates.

That's not a real good situation either. Some fancies can get pretty
large
and bulky. A 10 would be pushing it. A 10g for a small feeder would be
fine for awhile.

Your statement floored me, as you are supposed to be so knowledgeable
in Goldfish.

Be floored! ;-) If one in 50 of these feeders survive to need more
than
a 10g tank I'd be FLOORED.
================
Most people will be willing to buy a 10 g tank. Few will pull out
the money
for a 20Long for a 25¢ feeder. If the feeder lives long enough to outgrow
the 10g, they're usually willing to go for the 20L because they're
attached
to the fish by then. :-)

Hmm.....
So in your opinion, it's better to tell them incorrect information at
first...

No, it's better to start them off slowly and let them build up to larger
tanks like most of us do - especially considering the feeder will probably
not live long enough to outgrow the 10g tank. You can't seem to grasp the
fact that people who spend 20 cents on a fish in many cases can't even
afford a 10g tank and all it's trappings, or would not want to if they
could.

and then after they think they're doing fine for the fish only
to find out later on that they need another larger tank, because they
weren't told this in the first place?

See above.

Sorry. To me that's very wrong. It's not fair to the fish or to the
keeper.

Sorry. To me it isn't wrong as you can tell them at the time they will
probably need a larger tank if the fish survives with good care and feeding
as I would. I didn't say to LIE to them and tell them a GF will not outgrow
a 10g tank - and many don't. To expect a person to buy a .20 fish then
spend another $80 on a 20g tank is absurd.

Tell them the truth in the first place!

See above.

As for Goldie feeders not living long enoug to outgrow a 10g
tank...that's usually from the poor water conditions they were being
kept in. If done right, they'll be living great for nearly 20 yrs in
their large tank.

WOW!!! Big news huh? You can't seem to grasp that these fish will rarely
be alive in a year simply because of poor care and ignorance on the owners
part, or just lack of interest after a few weeks or months. When the
novelty wears off bye bye fish. I've seen it repeatedly over the years.

I have talked to hundreds of folks that have been told a 10g tank is
fine. Then the fish out grows it quickly and they're ticked off that
they weren't told the right info in the first place...

Hundreds of 20 cent fish buyers who bought 10g tanks???? LOL!!! A 10g is
fine to start with (if you can even get them to spend that much on a
feeder) so your story doesn't hold water if you'll pardon my pun. Most
people who buy a .20 fish are not dedicated fish people and will not spend
$80 on a set-up for the .20 fish. I worked in several stores over the years
and know this for a fact. Besides it doesn't matter what I say you will
find some reason to be nasty and disagree. JUST about everyone I knew who
bought a .20 goldfish or betta soon lost interest and either gave the fish
away or neglect killed it. They didn't have it long enough to outgrow a 10g
tank.

when they could
have just bought the right tank before. Instead, they have to purchase
another set up. Too often people do not want to do that! They end up
leaving the poor fish in the tiny tank till it dies when they could've
had the right set up in the first place.

See above.

Telling somebody incorrect information, even if it's *just for now* is
bullcrap!

Stop putting words in my mouth to show off. You're not impressing anyone.
You tell them if the fish lives it *MAY* outgrow the tank. Many GF do not.

If you are taking on the responsibility to give out advice, it should
at least be correct, and fully, not just partly correct.

It is correct.

If you tell a person a 10g will be fine for that feeder Goldie...

Telling them they MUST BUY a 20g tank for a .20 feeder is absurd. That as
absurd as telling people they need a 1 or 2g tank for a betta when most are
kept in small bowls. So you're telling them only PART of the truth so don't
sling mulm at me!

add to
it right then and there that they will have to purchase a much larger
set up in the near future.

They will? Since when to we have the RIGHT to dictate to someone else what
they will have to do in the future? The chance the feeder will even be
alive in a few week is almost nil that's what I never coerced them to buy an
$80+ set-up (the stands alone can be another $80) for their .20 fish. Even
the people who buy my GF are told to start small with a 10g tank and see if
they like fish keeping before spending a lot of money. I tell them if this
fish lives and thrives you will need to purchase a 20 or 30L down the road
and leave it up to them to decide what to spend and do.

At least that gives them the chance to buy
the right set up the first time, or it prepares them for the fact they
this tank is only temporary.
I cannot understand why don't ge that.

I can't understand why you can't grasp that someone spending .20 for a
feeder fish will *NOT* cough up another $80 to $160 for a set-up for the
fish, especially when the fish is for a child. In most cases of feeders it
was! I was happy to see them buy the 10g rather than a bowl that meant
certain death.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
Troll Information:
http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Koi-lo wrote:
"Tynk" wrote in message
oups.com...

Koi-lo wrote:
"Tynk" wrote in message
oups.com...

Koi-lo wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
\ Your tank is really too small for goldfish.
\ ~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Koi-Lo wrote:

Goldfish get large, up to 12" under excellent conditions so a 3g
tank is
much to small. Can you replace this with a 10g tank?

Depending on the type of feeder, some can reach 16".
AND, knowing that why would you recommend them getting a 10g tank, just
to have to buy another larger tank later on??

Most people will be willing to buy a 10 g tank. Few will pull out the
money
for a 20Long for a 25¢ feeder. If the feeder lives long enough to outgrow
the 10g, they're usually willing to go for the 20L because they're
attached
to the fish by then. :-)

Feeder Goldies are the ones that should have 15-20 gallons PER
Goldfish.

See above. Few survive that long for a variety of reasons, as you haveto
realize.

The smaller, fancy types are the ones that can be stuffed into a 10g by
it's self with no other tank mates.

That's not a real good situation either. Some fancies can get pretty
large
and bulky. A 10 would be pushing it. A 10g for a small feeder would be
fine for awhile.

Your statement floored me, as you are supposed to be so knowledgeable
in Goldfish.

Be floored! ;-) If one in 50 of these feeders survive to need more
than
a 10g tank I'd be FLOORED.
================
Most people will be willing to buy a 10 g tank. Few will pull out
the money
for a 20Long for a 25¢ feeder. If the feeder lives long enough to outgrow
the 10g, they're usually willing to go for the 20L because they're
attached
to the fish by then. :-)

Hmm.....
So in your opinion, it's better to tell them incorrect information at
first...

No, it's better to start them off slowly and let them build up to larger
tanks like most of us do - especially considering the feeder will probably
not live long enough to outgrow the 10g tank. You can't seem to grasp the
fact that people who spend 20 cents on a fish in many cases can't even
afford a 10g tank and all it's trappings, or would not want to if they
could.

and then after they think they're doing fine for the fish only
to find out later on that they need another larger tank, because they
weren't told this in the first place?

See above.

Sorry. To me that's very wrong. It's not fair to the fish or to the
keeper.

Sorry. To me it isn't wrong as you can tell them at the time they will
probably need a larger tank if the fish survives with good care and feeding
as I would. I didn't say to LIE to them and tell them a GF will not outgrow
a 10g tank - and many don't. To expect a person to buy a .20 fish then
spend another $80 on a 20g tank is absurd.

Tell them the truth in the first place!

See above.

As for Goldie feeders not living long enoug to outgrow a 10g
tank...that's usually from the poor water conditions they were being
kept in. If done right, they'll be living great for nearly 20 yrs in
their large tank.

WOW!!! Big news huh? You can't seem to grasp that these fish will rarely
be alive in a year simply because of poor care and ignorance on the owners
part, or just lack of interest after a few weeks or months. When the
novelty wears off bye bye fish. I've seen it repeatedly over the years.

I have talked to hundreds of folks that have been told a 10g tank is
fine. Then the fish out grows it quickly and they're ticked off that
they weren't told the right info in the first place...

Hundreds of 20 cent fish buyers who bought 10g tanks???? LOL!!! A 10g is
fine to start with (if you can even get them to spend that much on a
feeder) so your story doesn't hold water if you'll pardon my pun. Most
people who buy a .20 fish are not dedicated fish people and will not spend
$80 on a set-up for the .20 fish. I worked in several stores over the years
and know this for a fact. Besides it doesn't matter what I say you will
find some reason to be nasty and disagree. JUST about everyone I knew who
bought a .20 goldfish or betta soon lost interest and either gave the fish
away or neglect killed it. They didn't have it long enough to outgrow a 10g
tank.

when they could
have just bought the right tank before. Instead, they have to purchase
another set up. Too often people do not want to do that! They end up
leaving the poor fish in the tiny tank till it dies when they could've
had the right set up in the first place.

See above.

Telling somebody incorrect information, even if it's *just for now* is
bullcrap!

Stop putting words in my mouth to show off. You're not impressing anyone.
You tell them if the fish lives it *MAY* outgrow the tank. Many GF do not.

If you are taking on the responsibility to give out advice, it should
at least be correct, and fully, not just partly correct.

It is correct.

If you tell a person a 10g will be fine for that feeder Goldie...

Telling them they MUST BUY a 20g tank for a .20 feeder is absurd. That as
absurd as telling people they need a 1 or 2g tank for a betta when most are
kept in small bowls. So you're telling them only PART of the truth so don't
sling mulm at me!

add to
it right then and there that they will have to purchase a much larger
set up in the near future.

They will? Since when to we have the RIGHT to dictate to someone else what
they will have to do in the future? The chance the feeder will even be
alive in a few week is almost nil that's what I never coerced them to buyan
$80+ set-up (the stands alone can be another $80) for their .20 fish. Even
the people who buy my GF are told to start small with a 10g tank and see if
they like fish keeping before spending a lot of money. I tell them if this
fish lives and thrives you will need to purchase a 20 or 30L down the road
and leave it up to them to decide what to spend and do.

At least that gives them the chance to buy
the right set up the first time, or it prepares them for the fact they
this tank is only temporary.
I cannot understand why don't ge that.

I can't understand why you can't grasp that someone spending .20 for a
feeder fish will *NOT* cough up another $80 to $160 for a set-up for the
fish, especially when the fish is for a child. In most cases of feeders it
was! I was happy to see them buy the 10g rather than a bowl that meant
certain death.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
Troll Information:
http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

You missed the entire point of telling them the whole truth first.

Koi-Lo wrote:

Goldfish get large, up to 12" under excellent conditions so a 3g tank
is
much to small. Can you replace this with a 10g tank?

You're telling a person who has a common Goldie, which reach between
14-16" long, have good sized body mass, to get a 10g tank. You made no
mention what so ever about needing a larger in the near future.
Hence the point of my problem with what you told them.
Why not tell them the entire truth?
You seem to have an issue with somebody paying $.20 for a Goldie. Some
of those poeple actually prefer them, enjoy them and would like to care
for them properly.
It doesn't matter how little it cost. It still deserves proper
treatment and proper housing!!
This is something you don't agree with.
Same with your treatment of Bettas. It doesn't matter how many idiots
house them in tiny bowls, it doesn't make it right for that fish!!
It cruel for them to be kept in such tiny bowls.
It's deadly to house a Goldfish in something too small. (either death
by polluted water from their own waste, or death from stunted growth.
That's when their growth is stunted and it also stunts their internal
organs making them croak way too soon.) Both of which are very, very
wrong, yet you seem to think it's perfectly fine.
It's not. It's cruel treatment.
It makes no difference what the poor thing cost.

"Tynk" wrote in message
oups.com...

You're telling a person who has a common Goldie, which reach between
14-16" long, have good sized body mass, to get a 10g tank. You made no
mention what so ever about needing a larger in the near future.
Hence the point of my problem with what you told them.
Why not tell them the entire truth?

Why keep harassing me over it? I tell everyone who buys a GF that they can
reach a foot long IN TIME which they can if they live that long. Perhaps
one in 100 will survive to out grow a 10 gallon tank.

You seem to have an issue with somebody paying $.20 for a Goldie.

You seem to have an issue on what people should tell others. For all I
care they can buy a 150g tank for a 10 cent feeder. That's their decision
to make. Not mine and not yours.

Some
of those poeple actually prefer them, enjoy them and would like to care
for them properly.

Of course. It's still their decision to make. Not our decision. When I
tell people they can get a foot long I never once had the person say, "Oh
Geeze, I better buy a 55g tank."

It doesn't matter how little it cost. It still deserves proper
treatment and proper housing!!
This is something you don't agree with.

No, it's something you want to get ugly over for some reason. You think
everyone should do and say as you want them to do and say here,.... and
that's not going to happen.

Same with your treatment of Bettas. It doesn't matter how many idiots
house them in tiny bowls, it doesn't make it right for that fish!!

No one said it did. Once the person buys the fish you and I have nothing to
say about what they do with it. They will do as they please.

It cruel for them to be kept in such tiny bowls.
It's deadly to house a Goldfish in something too small.

Which is a complete LIE since. Maybe you need to expend you energy getting
laws passed which dictate what size tank people must purchase before they
buy even 10 cent fish. You wont change the world here.

(either death
by polluted water from their own waste, or death from stunted growth.

Sure.... which can also happen in a neglected 120g tank.

That's when their growth is stunted and it also stunts their internal
organs making them croak way too soon.) Both of which are very, very
wrong, yet you seem to think it's perfectly fine.

No, you're just putting words in someone's mouth because YOU feel you're
right about this and will belittle someone who disagrees.

It's not. It's cruel treatment.

Then have laws passed that everyone who buys a GF of any kind must also
purchase a 20g or 30g tank.

It makes no difference what the poor thing cost.

Yes, the poor things! If you were so concerned you wouldn't be breeding
fish and selling them so stop pulling the "poor things" act on me.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
Troll Information:
http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Koi-lo wrote:
"Tynk" wrote in message
oups.com...

You're telling a person who has a common Goldie, which reach between
14-16" long, have good sized body mass, to get a 10g tank. You made no
mention what so ever about needing a larger in the near future.
Hence the point of my problem with what you told them.
Why not tell them the entire truth?

Why keep harassing me over it? I tell everyone who buys a GF that they can
reach a foot long IN TIME which they can if they live that long. Perhaps
one in 100 will survive to out grow a 10 gallon tank.

You seem to have an issue with somebody paying $.20 for a Goldie.

You seem to have an issue on what people should tell others. For all I
care they can buy a 150g tank for a 10 cent feeder. That's their decision
to make. Not mine and not yours.

Some
of those poeple actually prefer them, enjoy them and would like to care
for them properly.

Of course. It's still their decision to make. Not our decision. When I
tell people they can get a foot long I never once had the person say, "Oh
Geeze, I better buy a 55g tank."

It doesn't matter how little it cost. It still deserves proper
treatment and proper housing!!
This is something you don't agree with.

No, it's something you want to get ugly over for some reason. You think
everyone should do and say as you want them to do and say here,.... and
that's not going to happen.

Same with your treatment of Bettas. It doesn't matter how many idiots
house them in tiny bowls, it doesn't make it right for that fish!!

No one said it did. Once the person buys the fish you and I have nothing to
say about what they do with it. They will do as they please.

It cruel for them to be kept in such tiny bowls.
It's deadly to house a Goldfish in something too small.

Which is a complete LIE since. Maybe you need to expend you energy getting
laws passed which dictate what size tank people must purchase before they
buy even 10 cent fish. You wont change the world here.

(either death
by polluted water from their own waste, or death from stunted growth.

Sure.... which can also happen in a neglected 120g tank.

That's when their growth is stunted and it also stunts their internal
organs making them croak way too soon.) Both of which are very, very
wrong, yet you seem to think it's perfectly fine.

No, you're just putting words in someone's mouth because YOU feel you're
right about this and will belittle someone who disagrees.

It's not. It's cruel treatment.

Then have laws passed that everyone who buys a GF of any kind must also
purchase a 20g or 30g tank.

It makes no difference what the poor thing cost.

Yes, the poor things! If you were so concerned you wouldn't be breeding
fish and selling them so stop pulling the "poor things" act on me.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
Troll Information:
http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

I tell everyone who buys a GF that they can
reach a foot long IN TIME which they can if they live that long. Perhaps
one in 100 will survive to out grow a 10 gallon tank

And why is that?
Because of people telling them bad, bogus, false or misleading
information about their proper care.

It doesn't matter how little it cost. It still deserves proper
treatment and proper housing!!
This is something you don't agree with.

No, it's something you want to get ugly over for some reason. You think
everyone should do and say as you want them to do and say here,.... and
that's not going to happen.

I don't think everyone should do as I say. That's just silly.
I do however, have a problem with people giving out bad or bogus
information, or half truths when it comes to the proper care of fish.
You keep missing that point. Anyone can do the research and see what
I'm saying is the truth.
It's important that you tell them the entire truth right off the bat,
not half the proper care, but all of it.

Some
of those poeple actually prefer them, enjoy them and would like to care
for them properly.

Of course. It's still their decision to make. Not our decision. When I
tell people they can get a foot long I never once had the person say, "Oh
Geeze, I better buy a 55g tank."

Of course they're going to do what they want to do anyway.
However, if more people actually told them the proper care and housing
in the FIRST PLACE there wouldn't be so many Goldfish, as well as other
species, being kept in such horrible conditions.

You didn't tell the original poster that they'll need a much larger
tank than a 10g soon.
Don't you think they might have wanted to know that in the first place?
Of course they would!!
I've heard it too many times....well why didn't they tell me that when
I bought the thing.
In a way, you are adding to the problem.
Now if this person took your advice and bought the Goldie a 10g, then
finds out it was really too small of a tank in the first place and now
they've got to go out and buy another entire set up, you don't think
that's going to make them ticked off, or worse....ticked off and say
forget it and leave the poor thing to die from being stunted.
That's why telling people only some of the tank requirments isn't
right.
I guess that's lost on you.


It cruel for them to be kept in such tiny bowls.
It's deadly to house a Goldfish in something too small.

Which is a complete LIE since. Maybe you need to expend you energy getting
laws passed which dictate what size tank people must purchase before they
buy even 10 cent fish. You wont change the world here.

(either death
by polluted water from their own waste, or death from stunted growth.

Sure.... which can also happen in a neglected 120g tank.

Well duh. Anyone knows that can happen with a polluted tank, but it's
surely not going to stunt a goldie living in a 120g. That was just a
silly, hot headed response which meant nothing. You cannot compare a
Goldie living in a 3g tank vs. a 120g. Ridiculous.

Do you undestand what happens to a fish that has been stunted because
it's been stuffed into a tank that's way too small, no matter much
water is changed weekly?

To say that stunting a fish isn't deadly, that it's a complete lie, is
also ridiculous.
I hope you will research the subject and learn more about it.
If a fish's growth is stunted, it dies much earlier than it's normal
lifespan. That is *deadly*.
You claim this is a lie. There is proof on the subject. Please,
research this so that you can understand what actually happens to them.
They don't just stay smaller.
Stunting will eventually kill them.


That's when their growth is stunted and it also stunts their internal
organs making them croak way too soon.) Both of which are very, very
wrong, yet you seem to think it's perfectly fine.

No, you're just putting words in someone's mouth because YOU feel you're
right about this and will belittle someone who disagrees.

Explain how I'm putting words into somebody's mouth? This enitre
statement made no sense in regard to what you are replying to.

It's not. It's cruel treatment.

Then have laws passed that everyone who buys a GF of any kind must also
purchase a 20g or 30g tank.

You know what...there should be laws regarding proper care for every
animal, not just 4 legged animals.

Yes, the poor things! If you were so concerned you wouldn't be breeding
fish and selling them so stop pulling the "poor things" act on me.

Sweetie...You know nothing of my breeding program.
I don't breed for profit, for quantity, or just because I have a male
and female.
You've never asked me how often I breed, or know anything about my
breeding program.
Again...ridiculous to pounce on me for it.
I haven't bred in over 9 yrs because 1...either the stock wasn't worthy
to breed, but were worthy to keep as pets, or 2. the *worthy* pair
didn't spawn and I refuse to spawn just to spawn them. It's about
fixing a line, or making it better, or simply because the line is so
worthy of breeding.
Several yrs back I had 4 White Opaques from Bonnie McKinnley's line.
Gorgeous fish.
However, out of the 2 pairs only 1 m & f were worthy of spawning. The
male did not have a clue and refused to spawn. I wanted so badly to
have a White Opaque line going, but I do have a set of breeding ethics
that I stand by firmly.
The shops I sold to yrs back (2 different ones) sold them to folks that
had the proper set ups. Now this was before they became so popular and
all the Betta/vase/peaceLily disaster started. So people back then
actually kept them properly.
You couldn't find an Ivy bowl in a pet shop to save your life!
15 + or - yrs ago their popularity increased (as well as the
mispronunciation of Betta to "bait-uh") and so did the poor conditions
for them. Thanks mainly to the chain stores, and then the local stores
that opened that just wanted to make more money instead of actually
being truthful to hobbyists.
Then came the idiot with the Betta and peace Lily in a vase and told
people that they eat algae off the roots of the Lily. Duh. These fish
are carnivores. Do you think I sat by and did nothing?
Absolutely NOT. I have worked long and hard for yrs about getting the
proper care of these fish out there, as well as other fish, and you
aren't going to say anything to sway me not to.
I will correct bogus information every time I see it.
If you don't want me correcting something that you've said that's
incorrect, or even harmful to a fish, then don't say it. Pretty simple.
If somebody else corrects you it's fine..no worries....yet when I do
you have a flaming fit and call me a liar.
Why don't you simply filter me out. That way you won't have to get your
panties in a bunch when I do. = )

"Tynk" wrote in message
oups.com...

Koi-lo wrote:
"Tynk" wrote in message
oups.com...
snip

...That way you won't have to get your
panties in a bunch when I do. = )

While I personally think it's awesome how passionate you both are about
the fish's welfare, the image of the two of you with your panties in a
bunch was just too much for me to handle ;~).

--
www.NetMax.tk

"Tynk" wrote in message
oups.com...

I tell everyone who buys a GF that they can
reach a foot long IN TIME which they can if they live that long.
Perhaps
one in 100 will survive to out grow a 10 gallon tank

And why is that?
Because of people telling them bad, bogus, false or misleading
information about their proper care.

Have laws passed then forcing everyone to do as YOU say they should do.

It doesn't matter how little it cost. It still deserves proper
treatment and proper housing!!
This is something you don't agree with.

No, it's something you want to get ugly over for some reason. You think
everyone should do and say as you want them to do and say here,.... and
that's not going to happen.

I don't think everyone should do as I say. That's just silly.

Oh really, yet you BEAT it death.

I do however, have a problem with people giving out bad or bogus
information,

So do I. SURPRISE!!!!

or half truths when it comes to the proper care of fish.
You keep missing that point.

You miss the point that you are not GOD and you have no idea what people
will do with a fish once they bring it home no matter how large the tank
someone sold them.

Anyone can do the research and see what
I'm saying is the truth.

Yawn..........

It's important that you tell them the entire truth right off the bat,
not half the proper care, but all of it.

Telling them the fish can reach a foot long is a half truth? Anyone who
comes here can SEE for themselves how large GF can get. There is nothing
wrong with starting with a 10g for a small GF. Most of us started with a 5
or 10 for our first goldfish. I'd rather see them in that than a bowl =
certain death.


Some
of those poeple actually prefer them, enjoy them and would like to care
for them properly.

Of course. It's still their decision to make. Not our decision. When I
tell people they can get a foot long I never once had the person say, "Oh
Geeze, I better buy a 55g tank."

Of course they're going to do what they want to do anyway.
However, if more people actually told them the proper care and housing
in the FIRST PLACE there wouldn't be so many Goldfish, as well as other
species, being kept in such horrible conditions.

Like those small ivy bowls most of the bettes being bred and sold are doomed
to live in - right?

You didn't tell the original poster that they'll need a much larger
tank than a 10g soon.

Then you tell them. No one's stopping you.

Don't you think they might have wanted to know that in the first place?
Of course they would!!

Now you're a mind reader and know what people are thinking?

I've heard it too many times....well why didn't they tell me that when
I bought the thing.

They know a fish getting 12" long if it survives will necessitate a larger
tank. You insult people's intelligence. Give people some credit for having
some common sense.

In a way, you are adding to the problem.

In a way you are as well so we're even..........

Now if this person took your advice and bought the Goldie a 10g, then
finds out it was really too small of a tank in the first place and now
they've got to go out and buy another entire set up, you don't think
that's going to make them ticked off, or worse....

When they were told a fish can get 12" long they could have decided to get
the larger tank to begin with. You must live in a neighborhood of
millionaires when people will whip out up to $180 for a tank set-up for a
goldfish.

ticked off and say
forget it and leave the poor thing to die from being stunted.

Why don't you get honest for 2 minutes - if even one of those feeders (or
even a more expensive GF) survives more than a few weeks it's a miracle.
Even GF people pay $25, $50 for are often left to languish after the novelty
wears off. I don't hear you whining about those left behind to be fed to
snakes, frogs and Oscars. Do you hound the Managers of the stores where you
live on their welfare? Better in a 10g tank in someone's home where someone
may give it some care then being shredded and eaten by some pet predator or
to die of filth and overcrowding at the pet store. When the fish gets
larger common sense will tell a person with even an average IQ that they
need to get a lager tank or give the fish away. By then they will know if
this hobby is for them or not. When I worked in the pet shop in town people
would bring in unwanted fish all the time and give them to us. Sometimes
they'd even offer us the tank for free to "give to some poor person's
child."

That's why telling people only some of the tank requirments isn't
right.
I guess that's lost on you.

Everything is lost on you.

(either death
by polluted water from their own waste, or death from stunted growth.

Sure.... which can also happen in a neglected 120g tank.

Well duh. Anyone knows that can happen with a polluted tank, but it's
surely not going to stunt a goldie living in a 120g.

It will just KILL him or her after some days or weeks of suffering.......

That was just a
silly, hot headed response which meant nothing. You cannot compare a
Goldie living in a 3g tank vs. a 120g. Ridiculous.

What 3g tank?

Do you undestand what happens to a fish that has been stunted because
it's been stuffed into a tank that's way too small, no matter much
water is changed weekly?

Do you? How does one *STUFF* a 2 to 3" fish into a 10g tank? Is your 10g
tanks only 4" by 4" in size?

To say that stunting a fish isn't deadly, that it's a complete lie, is
also ridiculous.

You said, not me! Don't put words in other people's mouths because they
disagree with you.

I hope you will research the subject and learn more about it.

That's what you need to do. The net is full of info on GF.

If a fish's growth is stunted, it dies much earlier than it's normal
lifespan. That is *deadly*.
You claim this is a lie. There is proof on the subject.
Please,
research this so that you can understand what actually happens to them.
They don't just stay smaller.
Stunting will eventually kill them.

So you mean they should keep the GF in the 10g tank forever until they stunt
it? You mean they'd be too stupid to realize the tank is too small? That
only YOU have enough intelligence to see a bigger tank is needed? Everyone
else is an idiot?

That's when their growth is stunted and it also stunts their internal
organs making them croak way too soon.) Both of which are very, very
wrong, yet you seem to think it's perfectly fine.

No, you're just putting words in someone's mouth because YOU feel you're
right about this and will belittle someone who disagrees.

Explain how I'm putting words into somebody's mouth?

You're using the old BS technique of telling ME that I'm saying as thought
you were GOD and can read minds.

This enitre
statement made no sense in regard to what you are replying to.
It's not. It's cruel treatment.

Then have laws passed that everyone who buys a GF of any kind must also
purchase a 20g or 30g tank.

You know what...there should be laws regarding proper care for every
animal, not just 4 legged animals.

Proper care by who's standards? Better a well loved young GF in a 10g rank
than a neglected one in a 20g tank. If it lives give others the credit of
having some sense that they'll either give it away or get another tank.

Yes, the poor things! If you were so concerned you wouldn't be breeding
fish and selling them so stop pulling the "poor things" act on me.

Sweetie...You know nothing of my breeding program.
I don't breed for profit, for quantity, or just because I have a male
and female.
You've never asked me how often I breed, or know anything about my
breeding program.
Again...ridiculous to pounce on me for it.

To you everyone is ridiculous but yourself. You're really stuck on yourself
for some reason.

I haven't bred in over 9 yrs because 1...either the stock wasn't worthy
to breed, but were worthy to keep as pets, or 2. the *worthy* pair
didn't spawn and I refuse to spawn just to spawn them.

Do you want a pat on the back for that?

It's about
fixing a line, or making it better, or simply because the line is so
worthy of breeding.
Several yrs back I had 4 White Opaques from Bonnie McKinnley's line.
Gorgeous fish.
However, out of the 2 pairs only 1 m & f were worthy of spawning. The
male did not have a clue and refused to spawn. I wanted so badly to
have a White Opaque line going, but I do have a set of breeding ethics
that I stand by firmly.

Well good for you.

The shops I sold to yrs back (2 different ones) sold them to folks that
had the proper set ups.

And next you'll claim they paid someone to check out everyone's setup at
their homes - to sell them a $3 to $5 fish.

Now this was before they became so popular and
all the Betta/vase/peaceLily disaster started. So people back then
actually kept them properly.

I never knew any store to send an employee to someone's home to check out
their set-ups before selling them fish.

You couldn't find an Ivy bowl in a pet shop to save your life!
15 + or - yrs ago their popularity increased (as well as the
mispronunciation of Betta to "bait-uh") and so did the poor conditions
for them. Thanks mainly to the chain stores, and then the local stores
that opened that just wanted to make more money instead of actually
being truthful to hobbyists.
Then came the idiot with the Betta and peace Lily in a vase and told
people that they eat algae off the roots of the Lily. Duh. These fish
are carnivores. Do you think I sat by and did nothing?

I'm sure you went before congress and had it all stopped. No more batta
abuse. Do the goldfish next. Demand the person buy a 20g tank set-up for
any GF they're sold. Outlaw bowls and anything under 20g tanks.... ;-)
Keeping in mind the person usually has to buy a stand as well because of the
WEIGHT of a 20g tank. See how many people pull out their $150 to $180 for a
20g tank.

Absolutely NOT. I have worked long and hard for yrs about getting the
proper care of these fish out there, as well as other fish, and you
aren't going to say anything to sway me not to.

You must be paranoid!!!! I couldn't care less what you tell people. Tell
them all GF need 50 each for all I care. You wont be hurting my business
any.

I will correct bogus information every time I see it.

What's BOGUS to you is not BOGUS to someone else. Right now I have 4
*small* lionheads in a 10g tank with plants that are thriving. They're well
fed and get a 50% water change weekly. They'll be in there for at least
another 3 to 4 months. This is a crime of some kind?

If you don't want me correcting something that you've said that's
incorrect, or even harmful to a fish, then don't say it. Pretty simple.

Don't tell others what to do or say. You're not the moderator here. MOST
people I have known start with the 10g tank because it's called a starter
tank. It's affordable. It gives them a chance to see if the hobby is for
them without a lot of money lost if it isn't. MOST of them realize no
matter what they buy other than a few guppies or tetras will need a larger
tank in the future. You need to deal with REALITY, not your fantasies of
what you think is best for everyone and every fish.

If somebody else corrects you it's fine..no worries....yet when I do
you have a flaming fit and call me a liar.

Maybe it's your rotten attitude and know-it-all approach, ya think? If a
10g gets someone started in a hobby I love I will keep recommending it, with
or without YOUR approval. I give people credit for having some sense which
you do not. I always offer to take the fish back if they change their minds
or when it outgrows the 10g and they decide the hobby isn't for them. It
works for me, the fish and those who purchase them.

Why don't you simply filter me out. That way you won't have to get your
panties in a bunch when I do. = )

You aren't getting my panties in a bunch. It's winter and I'm indoors
anyway....... :-)
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
Troll Information:
http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o