Taking DISEASED fish nback .... :*(

On Wed, 05 Apr 2006 00:08:04 +0100, Gill Passman
wrote:

Mister Gardener wrote:
On Tue, 04 Apr 2006 23:03:31 +0100, Gill Passman
wrote:


Koi-Lo wrote:

I called WM and they agreed to take back the lionheads with
contagious-ulcer disease. I know I'm bringing them to their death but
nothing is helping. I was through this once before when my koi came
down with this about 5 years ago. All died and the store replaced every
one. Melafix did nothing.......

This is such a virulent strain that even Koi-Zyme, then Furanace made no
difference. Bacterial diseases are becoming immune to everything.

I am so, so sorry that it has ended this way :-( ...I remember your post
when you found the fish and how excited you were to find them...sadly
this is a regular occurance...me and my Neons...I know they are common
fish but I bought them with hope and a desire to do the best by
them...the same with Mr Gardener and his Angels (I still think there was
something wrong in the first place) and multiple other posters....

Ultimately I don't think it is the retail outlets that have the
issue...if they weren't supplied with sick fish in the first
place....there wouldn't be an issue. A lot of disease takes far longer
than is commercially viable to QT against....my LFS had the Neons for at
least 1-2 weeks in QT before selling them to me...I had them a further 4
weeks....

The issue is really the indiscriminate use of anti-biotics...it is
documented (but I would need to check sources) that it is common
practice for fish farms to routinely dose with anti-biotics but these
are not applied specifically to a certain bacteria....no wonder the
bacteria infecting the fish becomes resistant...then we have the whole
issue of hobbyists being able to self-diagnose and administer
anti-biotics in certain parts of the world (not possible in the
UK)...maybe a large percentage are responsible in applying medication
but I would hazard a guess that the majority cease treating once the
intial symptoms disappear....

It is not only about bacterial infections and fish becoming
resistant...it crosses over to people as well (not necessarily the
bacteria but the concept). Anti-biotics will only remain effective if
the bacteria is killed by them...once they develop a resistance we are
stuck...certainly different types of anti-biotics treat different
bacteria and where one is not effective another maybe...but the ad-hoc
application of these drugs (by fish farms, wholesalers, retailers and
eventually the hobbyiest) will make this worse....responsible fish
owners such as ourselves will become more and more frustrated...IMO the
only time antibiotics should be used is after cultures are taken and on
the say so of a vet/doctor...this would ensure that the correct bacteria
are targetted rather than someone trying to second guess...sadly you
have seen the implications of this...

The whole misuse of antibiotics and the effect of bacteria building up
resistance is a subject close to my heart....I nearly lost my daughter
at 10 months, because although I was assured that the anti-biotics were
treating her infection and then just as it hit crisis we found out that
she had one that was resistant to the treatment - probably through
misuse of these by others building bacteria that are resistant to
certain anti-biotics...I/she was lucky - we found another anti-biotic
that treated her successfully...but all the time we misuse these
medicines we run the risk not only to our fish but to ourselves of
creating resistant strains....

Gill getting off the soap box....

I'm truly sorry for what has happened and I'm not aiming this lecture at
you or anyone in particular. In fact I think I am expanding on your
statement "Bacterial diseases are becoming immune to everything." and
trying to explain why...

Gill


Can we get back on topic now. (I just know that NetMax is going to be
needing a spill proof keyboard.)

You can extend the antibiotic abuse to the way we raise animals for
meat - we raise them in crowded barely tolerable conditions and load
them with antibiotics and hormones to keep them growing and disease
free. And we've become so focused on germs that we now add
bactericides to our dish soap, our nose tissues and even our bum
swipes! In the grocery store they dispense special wipes for the
handle of the grocery cart so we can't catch something from the person
that used the cart before us.

-- Mister Gardener

Well I know that is slightly off-topic but it actually has a relevance
to our pets as well....my feeling, and one that I live by, is that a
certain amount of cleanliness is essential to protect against certain
disease - for example typhoid, cholera etc. etc. but if we over clean
and our immune system does not develop sufficiently to stave off the
bugs that we will meet day to day....I use very little anti-bacterial
products in my home (toilet cleaners, and some stuff for various kid/pet
accidents but no more). If we go providing a sterile environment for us,
our kids, and our pets then once we come into contact with anything our
immune systems will not be up to dealing with it....basic hygeine
fine...washing hands etc and keeping things clean but destroying every
single germ/bacteria I don't really hold with...(and if I understand
various marketing stuff correctly (tongue in cheek I believe it goes
further than that) certain bacteria are good for the well being of all
live creatures. I hope I won't get proven wrong but I understand that
our children are more prone to bacterial infections since the use of
these products than they were before...same might go for our fish...the
immune system of all of us be we human, furry or scaled is our biggest
natural defence...which is our immune system...any weakening of this has
to be bad...
Yes. You took the words right out of my keyboard. Which I have not, by
the way, wiped with one of those keyboard wipers. It has been said
that someday bacteria will take over the world, hell, they don't need
to take it over, we're giving it to them gift wrapped. After washing
our hands, of course.

-- Mister Gardener