Reef sumps by ESHOPPS

"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message k.net...
I have not seen that one, but I'm not a big fan of premade
sumps with baffles. I much prefer a regular tank that can
always be used as a tank later, and can be flexible in
use. I prefer to use live rock, and sea weed instead of
baffles. And instead of drilling a sump, I prefer to use
an external pump, and simply send the plumbing up and over
the wall of the tank.

Using seaweed requires the sump to be lighted.

Not using baffles you are dealing with air bubbles
going into the return pump and geting into the tank.
How do you deal with air bubbles?

Also, occupying sump with live rock you have no room
there left for placing skimmer, phosphate reaktor
and other devices people normally put in the sump.

Having 90' elbows on your plumbing you waste the
pump power - each elbow is like a foot hight, so
the flow rate you get from the pump is much lesser...
I also do not drill the sump, but I use internal pump
like quiet one 3000 which has enough flow for my 58 g.

Pszemol wrote on 10/31/2006 12:16 PM:

Using seaweed requires the sump to be lighted.

Yep, and many people are liking the benefits that
refugiums provide.


Not using baffles you are dealing with air bubbles
going into the return pump and geting into the tank.
How do you deal with air bubbles?

Live rock rubble in the sump takes all the bubbles out.


Also, occupying sump with live rock you have no room
there left for placing skimmer, phosphate reaktor
and other devices people normally put in the sump.

I have room for a 1,000 gph protein skimmer in my sump,
and room for carbon and any other bags of media I may want
in there, currently experimenting with a bag of sulfur.


Having 90' elbows on your plumbing you waste the
pump power - each elbow is like a foot hight, so
the flow rate you get from the pump is much lesser...

I use 2" thin wall pvc pipe.

I also do not drill the sump, but I use internal pump
like quiet one 3000 which has enough flow for my 58 g.

I like external pumps because when the electricity comes
on they kick on, as they are real motors, and not vibrator
pumps. Also less heat transfer.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets

"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message k.net...
Pszemol wrote on 10/31/2006 12:16 PM:

Using seaweed requires the sump to be lighted.

Yep, and many people are liking the benefits that
refugiums provide.

Refugium and lighted sumps are not the same thing...
If you have high water flow than it is not refugium
anymore - all the plankton will be swept away to the
pump or the sponge on the way to the pump.

Not using baffles you are dealing with air bubbles
going into the return pump and geting into the tank.
How do you deal with air bubbles?

Live rock rubble in the sump takes all the bubbles out.

Do you have any drawing you could share to ilustrate
the way you design your sumps?

Also, occupying sump with live rock you have no room
there left for placing skimmer, phosphate reaktor
and other devices people normally put in the sump.

I have room for a 1,000 gph protein skimmer in my sump,
and room for carbon and any other bags of media I may want
in there, currently experimenting with a bag of sulfur.

I find the bags in the sump very inefficient solution.
Water finds its way around the media bag and does not
penetrate carbon correctly.

Having 90' elbows on your plumbing you waste the
pump power - each elbow is like a foot hight, so
the flow rate you get from the pump is much lesser...

I use 2" thin wall pvc pipe.

And what kind of pump ?

I also do not drill the sump, but I use internal pump
like quiet one 3000 which has enough flow for my 58 g.

I like external pumps because when the electricity comes
on they kick on, as they are real motors, and not vibrator
pumps. Also less heat transfer.

Do not experience problems with starting of my pump.
Power outages are quire frequent in my area.
Powerheads like quiet one 3000 give you more water
movement per watt of electricity than external pumps.

Pszemol wrote on 10/31/2006 3:46 PM:
"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message
k.net...
Pszemol wrote on 10/31/2006 12:16 PM:

Using seaweed requires the sump to be lighted.

Yep, and many people are liking the benefits that refugiums provide.

Refugium and lighted sumps are not the same thing...
If you have high water flow than it is not refugium
anymore - all the plankton will be swept away to the
pump or the sponge on the way to the pump.

It's still a refugium for algae, and pods, but yea there
are other things that won't stay in there with strong
water, but a larger sump with space for slow water will work.


Not using baffles you are dealing with air bubbles
going into the return pump and geting into the tank.
How do you deal with air bubbles?

Live rock rubble in the sump takes all the bubbles out.

Do you have any drawing you could share to ilustrate
the way you design your sumps?

Ok, I just got some pictures up of the third cement tank.
I need to get more up, but, here's some pictures of the sump.

http://waynesallee.com/thirdcementtankpictures.htm


Also, occupying sump with live rock you have no room
there left for placing skimmer, phosphate reaktor
and other devices people normally put in the sump.

I have room for a 1,000 gph protein skimmer in my sump, and room for
carbon and any other bags of media I may want in there, currently
experimenting with a bag of sulfur.

I find the bags in the sump very inefficient solution.
Water finds its way around the media bag and does not
penetrate carbon correctly.

I don't find it to be a problem.


Having 90' elbows on your plumbing you waste the
pump power - each elbow is like a foot hight, so
the flow rate you get from the pump is much lesser...

I use 2" thin wall pvc pipe.

And what kind of pump ?

Little Giant 4mdqxsc


I also do not drill the sump, but I use internal pump
like quiet one 3000 which has enough flow for my 58 g.

I like external pumps because when the electricity comes on they kick
on, as they are real motors, and not vibrator pumps. Also less heat
transfer.

Do not experience problems with starting of my pump.
Power outages are quire frequent in my area.
Powerheads like quiet one 3000 give you more water
movement per watt of electricity than external pumps.

After a while just like powerheads, they start to wear,
and don't want to start back up. The pump I use will start
to squeal from the wearing of the bearings, first
chirping, and then longer to becoming squeals, long before
it fails from wear.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets

You can also see pictures of my home tank (built before
this last one) at http://waynesallee.com/plumbingpictures.htm

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



Wayne Sallee wrote on 10/31/2006 5:41 PM:


Pszemol wrote on 10/31/2006 3:46 PM:
"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message
k.net...
Pszemol wrote on 10/31/2006 12:16 PM:

Using seaweed requires the sump to be lighted.

Yep, and many people are liking the benefits that refugiums provide.

Refugium and lighted sumps are not the same thing...
If you have high water flow than it is not refugium
anymore - all the plankton will be swept away to the
pump or the sponge on the way to the pump.

It's still a refugium for algae, and pods, but yea there are other
things that won't stay in there with strong water, but a larger sump
with space for slow water will work.


Not using baffles you are dealing with air bubbles
going into the return pump and geting into the tank.
How do you deal with air bubbles?

Live rock rubble in the sump takes all the bubbles out.

Do you have any drawing you could share to ilustrate
the way you design your sumps?

Ok, I just got some pictures up of the third cement tank. I need to get
more up, but, here's some pictures of the sump.

http://waynesallee.com/thirdcementtankpictures.htm


Also, occupying sump with live rock you have no room
there left for placing skimmer, phosphate reaktor
and other devices people normally put in the sump.

I have room for a 1,000 gph protein skimmer in my sump, and room for
carbon and any other bags of media I may want in there, currently
experimenting with a bag of sulfur.

I find the bags in the sump very inefficient solution.
Water finds its way around the media bag and does not
penetrate carbon correctly.

I don't find it to be a problem.


Having 90' elbows on your plumbing you waste the
pump power - each elbow is like a foot hight, so
the flow rate you get from the pump is much lesser...

I use 2" thin wall pvc pipe.

And what kind of pump ?

Little Giant 4mdqxsc


I also do not drill the sump, but I use internal pump
like quiet one 3000 which has enough flow for my 58 g.

I like external pumps because when the electricity comes on they kick
on, as they are real motors, and not vibrator pumps. Also less heat
transfer.

Do not experience problems with starting of my pump.
Power outages are quire frequent in my area.
Powerheads like quiet one 3000 give you more water
movement per watt of electricity than external pumps.

After a while just like powerheads, they start to wear, and don't want
to start back up. The pump I use will start to squeal from the wearing
of the bearings, first chirping, and then longer to becoming squeals,
long before it fails from wear.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets

Pszemol wrote on 10/31/2006 3:46 PM:
Powerheads like quiet one 3000 give you more water
movement per watt of electricity than external pumps.

Yes, that's correct. Because of their design, they will
use less electricity. External motors don't use the
vibrator pump method, but are actual motors that continue
to move the shaft in the same direction until it gets into
the next position, and then the next electrical contact is
made, forcing it into the next position, and so on, and so
they use more electricity.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets

What the heck is the "vibrator pump" method? I'd say your concept of how an
AC motor works is a bit weird. There is really nothing inherently more
efficient about a magnetically coupled, sealed, pump over what you are
calling an external pump. Every power head I've ever seen uses a sealed
rotating magnetic field which couples to a magnet attached to the impeller
shaft. What you are calling an external motor works in almost the same way,
a rotating magnetic field couples magnetically to a rotating shaft which is
then coupled mechanically to an impeller. The only advantage I see in a pump
mounted external to the sump is that it won't transfer heat to the tank.

Tankdoc

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne Sallee"
Newsgroups: rec.aquaria.marine.reefs


Pszemol wrote on 10/31/2006 3:46 PM:
Powerheads like quiet one 3000 give you more water
movement per watt of electricity than external pumps.

Yes, that's correct. Because of their design, they will use less
electricity. External motors don't use the vibrator pump method, but are
actual motors that continue to move the shaft in the same direction until
it gets into the next position, and then the next electrical contact is
made, forcing it into the next position, and so on, and so they use more
electricity.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets

"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message
.net...
Pszemol wrote on 10/31/2006 3:46 PM:
Powerheads like quiet one 3000 give you more water
movement per watt of electricity than external pumps.

Yes, that's correct. Because of their design, they will use less
electricity. External motors don't use the vibrator pump method, but are
actual motors that continue to move the shaft in the same direction until
it gets into the next position, and then the next electrical contact is
made, forcing it into the next position, and so on, and so they use more
electricity.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets

The difference is that a submersible pump like a powerhead
works by giving an alternating magnetic charge. You will
notice that when a powerhead starts up, it's a 50/50
chance as to which way it will spin, and if something gets
stuck in there, like if you stick your finger on the
impeller, you will notice that the impeller vibrates back
and forth.

But a external pump like little giant, uses windings that
are charged in order one after another, depending on the
position that the shaft is in, because the electrical
contacts on the shaft control the polarity of the
electrical field being generated.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



tankdoc wrote on 10/31/2006 11:50 PM:
What the heck is the "vibrator pump" method? I'd say your concept of how an
AC motor works is a bit weird. There is really nothing inherently more
efficient about a magnetically coupled, sealed, pump over what you are
calling an external pump. Every power head I've ever seen uses a sealed
rotating magnetic field which couples to a magnet attached to the impeller
shaft. What you are calling an external motor works in almost the same way,
a rotating magnetic field couples magnetically to a rotating shaft which is
then coupled mechanically to an impeller. The only advantage I see in a pump
mounted external to the sump is that it won't transfer heat to the tank.

Tankdoc

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne Sallee"
Newsgroups: rec.aquaria.marine.reefs


Pszemol wrote on 10/31/2006 3:46 PM:
Powerheads like quiet one 3000 give you more water
movement per watt of electricity than external pumps.
Yes, that's correct. Because of their design, they will use less
electricity. External motors don't use the vibrator pump method, but are
actual motors that continue to move the shaft in the same direction until
it gets into the next position, and then the next electrical contact is
made, forcing it into the next position, and so on, and so they use more
electricity.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets

"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message
.net...
Pszemol wrote on 10/31/2006 3:46 PM:
Powerheads like quiet one 3000 give you more water
movement per watt of electricity than external pumps.
Yes, that's correct. Because of their design, they will use less
electricity. External motors don't use the vibrator pump method, but are
actual motors that continue to move the shaft in the same direction until
it gets into the next position, and then the next electrical contact is
made, forcing it into the next position, and so on, and so they use more
electricity.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets

Wayne Sallee wrote:
The difference is that a submersible pump like a powerhead works by
giving an alternating magnetic charge. You will notice that when a
powerhead starts up, it's a 50/50 chance as to which way it will spin,
and if something gets stuck in there, like if you stick your finger on
the impeller, you will notice that the impeller vibrates back and forth.

Called a "stepper" motor.

But a external pump like little giant, uses windings that are charged in
order one after another, depending on the position that the shaft is in,
because the electrical contacts on the shaft control the polarity of the
electrical field being generated.

Called a "squirrel cage" motor.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electri...ents_and_types

George Patterson
If there are obstacles, the shortest path between two points may be the
crooked one.

Ahh now I see what you are calling a vibrating pump, but the method of spin
in what you are calling an external pump is not controlled by the shaft
position, I think you are confusing a commutator with how an AC driven pump
is controlled. Its of no concern to reef keeping really.

You should know, though, that the Main Coolant pumps in a pressurized water
nuclear reactor use, essentially, the same design as a power head, and they
don't run backwards. If I stick my hand to stop the impeller on a power head
it vibrates simply because its trying to run but cant, the next time the
field comes by it trys again etc, so it feels like vibration.

Again, this is way off topic and I'll drop it now.

Tankdoc

"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message
.net...
The difference is that a submersible pump like a powerhead works by giving
an alternating magnetic charge. You will notice that when a powerhead
starts up, it's a 50/50 chance as to which way it will spin, and if
something gets stuck in there, like if you stick your finger on the
impeller, you will notice that the impeller vibrates back and forth.

But a external pump like little giant, uses windings that are charged in
order one after another, depending on the position that the shaft is in,
because the electrical contacts on the shaft control the polarity of the
electrical field being generated.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets



tankdoc wrote on 10/31/2006 11:50 PM:
What the heck is the "vibrator pump" method? I'd say your concept of how
an AC motor works is a bit weird. There is really nothing inherently more
efficient about a magnetically coupled, sealed, pump over what you are
calling an external pump. Every power head I've ever seen uses a sealed
rotating magnetic field which couples to a magnet attached to the
impeller shaft. What you are calling an external motor works in almost
the same way, a rotating magnetic field couples magnetically to a
rotating shaft which is then coupled mechanically to an impeller. The
only advantage I see in a pump mounted external to the sump is that it
won't transfer heat to the tank.

Tankdoc

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne Sallee"
Newsgroups: rec.aquaria.marine.reefs


Pszemol wrote on 10/31/2006 3:46 PM:
Powerheads like quiet one 3000 give you more water
movement per watt of electricity than external pumps.
Yes, that's correct. Because of their design, they will use less
electricity. External motors don't use the vibrator pump method, but are
actual motors that continue to move the shaft in the same direction
until it gets into the next position, and then the next electrical
contact is made, forcing it into the next position, and so on, and so
they use more electricity.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets

"Wayne Sallee" wrote in message
.net...
Pszemol wrote on 10/31/2006 3:46 PM:
Powerheads like quiet one 3000 give you more water
movement per watt of electricity than external pumps.
Yes, that's correct. Because of their design, they will use less
electricity. External motors don't use the vibrator pump method, but are
actual motors that continue to move the shaft in the same direction
until it gets into the next position, and then the next electrical
contact is made, forcing it into the next position, and so on, and so
they use more electricity.

Wayne Sallee
Wayne's Pets