Bo0ger1, show me your tank...

Well, I don't know who Booger is but here's some pictures of my tank
....

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/alanfromw...ank/index.html

Last water change was about a year ago, I add Kent's "essential
elements" once a week but I've no idea if it makes any difference.
Nitrates are almost zero, phosphates are zero: I grow Chaeto in the
sump export them. Can't really think of any good reason to waste money
and effort on water changes.

wrote in message ups.com...
Well, I don't know who Booger is but here's some pictures of my tank
...

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/alanfromw...ank/index.html

Last water change was about a year ago, I add Kent's "essential
elements" once a week but I've no idea if it makes any difference.
Nitrates are almost zero, phosphates are zero: I grow Chaeto in the
sump export them. Can't really think of any good reason to waste money
and effort on water changes.

Not bad...
Tell me, do you use any chemical filters like activated carbon
or phosphate removers ? Please tell me more about this tank.

I use Phosban. Until recently this was just in a filter bag hung in the
sump but I've just bought a reactor: I'm hoping I'll get more milage
out of the Phosban and the reactor will pay for itself in the long run.
It only needed changing every 3 months or so before but it's expenisve
stuff.

I've also just started running some carbon in a bag in the sump just to
see what happens. Can't honestly say I've noticed any difference yet.

wrote in message
ups.com...
Well, I don't know who Booger is but here's some pictures of my tank
...

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/alanfromw...ank/index.html

Last water change was about a year ago, I add Kent's "essential
elements" once a week but I've no idea if it makes any difference.

Ditto! I do the same thing, only I add Kent Marine essential elements 1once
a month or so. No water changes in 2-years! Just a little algae I need to
remedy.

These people here (for the most part) are brain washed into thinking you
need to water changes all the time.

Nitrates are almost zero, phosphates are zero: I grow Chaeto in the
sump export them. Can't really think of any good reason to waste money
and effort on water changes.

"bo0ger1" .@. wrote in
m:



wrote in message
ups.com...
Well, I don't know who Booger is but here's some pictures of my tank
...

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/alanfromw...ank/index.html

Last water change was about a year ago, I add Kent's "essential
elements" once a week but I've no idea if it makes any difference.

Ditto! I do the same thing, only I add Kent Marine essential elements
1once a month or so. No water changes in 2-years! Just a little
algae I need to remedy.

These people here (for the most part) are brain washed into thinking
you need to water changes all the time.


Mmm. You (deliberately, at this point?) mis-characterize water changes,
and the people who make use of them. Derisive comments directed at their
proponents does not hold nearly as much weight as demonstrated proof of
their being unnecessary. Talk is cheap, (and insults are free), especially
on the Internet. In that respect, blackhole555 has contributed an order of
magnitude more content with one post, than you have in the last three weeks
at r.a.m.reefs. You go on about water changes being a grand conspiracy of
unneeded work for the laboring aquarium proletariat, but have yet to offer
a shred of evidence that it works for you, other than your dubious word.

Water changes are a health/preventative measure for a closed aquatic
system, with a conscious reason for their use, not some mindless habit.

Analogy; People can live to be sixty or older on an exclusive McDonald's
diet. Some people can even thrive on it, usually if they're picky about
what they choose off of the menu. But for most of us, a healthy diet and
regular exercise are a much surer road to longevity. Water changes are the
equivalent of a person having a light workout 3 times per week, i.e. a
simple, proven, reliable method for improving one's health.

Application of analogy; Sure, just about everyone here has _already_
recognized that you can maintain a simple FOWLR tank without water changes,
and fairly easily so (keep the fish mass down vs. tank size, amount of
liverock and number of supporting detrivores, pick species which don't
produce an abundance of secreted toxins, and avoid messy eaters).
There are also instances of reefkeepers who can strike a balanced system
without water changes (often with either a technologically elaborate setup,
a means of nutrient export, or both), but that doesn't detract from the
value of water changes for those for whom it works, either. There are
several ways to live a healthy lifestyle...


To blackhole555, that's a beautiful tank! How big is it, and the sump?
A sump/refugium type-setup for nutrient export seems to be a recurring
theme to those reef tanks I've seen which report little/no water changes.
Do you think you would you be as confident of not changing your water, if
you were lacking that aspect of your setup? ...Do I see a Vecton UV
sterilizer in that cabinet, too?

Regards,
DaveZ
Atom Weaver

The tank is 36x24x24, the sump is 24x12x15, about 350L of water in
total, I think.

There is indeed a UV unit in there, also a fairly recent addition, I
added it after reading "The reef aquarium" vol 3 by J.Sprung (Excellent
reference book, BTW). he says they have "many advantages and no
disadvantages" & I reakon he knows his stuff!

I think the desicion to stop water changes (I did originally do them)
came more from my growing understanding of the reef chemistry and the
nitrogen cycle rather than "I've got all the kit, I don't need water
changes" type of thinking.

Might be better to stand the question on it's head and ask those who do
water changes "what do you think they achieve". I don't need to remove
NO3 (It varies between 0 & 5ppm) or PO4 or anything else I can think of
right now. If adding trace elements is your reason, then you're
assuming that the salt mix you buy has the correct trace elements in it
(Some don't event get the Ca & alk. right).

BTW: It's not laziness either, I also have 4 FW tanks & they get 20%
changed every 2 weeks. Anyone got any live rock that works in FW?

Might be better to stand the question on it's head and ask those who do
water changes "what do you think they achieve". I don't need to remove
NO3 (It varies between 0 & 5ppm) or PO4 or anything else I can think of
right now. If adding trace elements is your reason, then you're
assuming that the salt mix you buy has the correct trace elements in it
(Some don't event get the Ca & alk. right).

I have been arguing with these nuckleheads for about 2-weeks regarding
unnecessary water changes. I have received 3-reasons that they do them.

1) In order to add trace elements/remove nitrate.
2) It's enjoyable
3) Because coral release toxic chemicals into the water ??

I think the real reason they do it is for a lack of understanding at the
chemical/biological level. It is easier for them to do a water change than
to grasp what is going on in their tank at a biological level.


BTW: It's not laziness either, I also have 4 FW tanks & they get 20%
changed every 2 weeks. Anyone got any live rock that works in FW?

bo0ger1 wrote:
Might be better to stand the question on it's head and ask those who do
water changes "what do you think they achieve". I don't need to remove
NO3 (It varies between 0 & 5ppm) or PO4 or anything else I can think of
right now. If adding trace elements is your reason, then you're
assuming that the salt mix you buy has the correct trace elements in it
(Some don't event get the Ca & alk. right).


I have been arguing with these nuckleheads for about 2-weeks regarding
unnecessary water changes. I have received 3-reasons that they do them.

1) In order to add trace elements/remove nitrate.
2) It's enjoyable
3) Because coral release toxic chemicals into the water ??

I think the real reason they do it is for a lack of understanding at the
chemical/biological level. It is easier for them to do a water change than
to grasp what is going on in their tank at a biological level.


BTW: It's not laziness either, I also have 4 FW tanks & they get 20%
changed every 2 weeks. Anyone got any live rock that works in FW?




OK...I am very much a newbie here and come from a freshwater tropical
background where water changes are your saviour....reducing nitrates,
phosphates, docs and other nasties....has to be done....just a way of
life....but I am also very fascinated about finding the way to do this
naturally....in my freshwater tanks this is dead easy....just plant
everywhere and fertilise to promote the growth of the higher plant
species to get rid of algea (OK it isn't really that easy but it is
achievabale..) but water changes still play a big roll in this....now to
get a biotope working in a freshwater tank is quite a challenge as
well....Amano works towards doing this...and I know that there are
schools of thought that suggest that in a heavily planted tank gravel
vaccuming is a bad rather than a good thing.....

Now when it comes to water changes, and I am very much a newbie brought
up on the freshwater tank mentality.....I see gravel vacs in my 15 gall
Nano tank as a bad thing - afterall the whole thing balances on the
little critters living in my rocks and sand.....no way I want to suck
them up.....if my nitrates and phosphates are zero or only just dectable
then there is no need to change the water based on these readings....and
the Protein Skimmer is visibly doing its job.....but my corals are dying
and suffering, from what the process of elimination has determined, some
sort of toxins in the water then water changes is the only way to
go....if the tank was older than 10 weeks plus then I would look at
other issues...but even if the nitrogen cycle is complete this tank is
still developing (6 months down the line I hope I laugh at the traumas
I've had in the last 2 weeks - or at least be a little wiser)......and
rather hope I still have some corals living as a testament to my
learning process....

Failing all other measures....I will do water changes....and really I
get quite curious....if you are not doing water changes you are
obviously topping up the water to deal with evaporation....and this
might just be enough.....afterall it is still a slow and gentle water
change....and as far as I can see slow and gentle is the key.....

Would love to see pics of your tank

Gill

"Gill Passman" wrote in message ...
Failing all other measures....I will do water changes....and really I
get quite curious....if you are not doing water changes you are
obviously topping up the water to deal with evaporation....and this
might just be enough.....afterall it is still a slow and gentle water
change....and as far as I can see slow and gentle is the key.....

When water evaporates it LEAVES minerals behind making
the solution more concentrated. In other words, only "pure"
water evaporates leaving all the dirt in the tank... Toping off the
tank is NOTHING CLOSE to the water change in this regard.
If you do not use demineralized water for top-offs than you
in effect accumulated minerals from tap water due to the
constant, long term process of evaporation...

"bo0ger1" .@. wrote in message
m...

Might be better to stand the question on it's head and ask those who do
water changes "what do you think they achieve". I don't need to remove
NO3 (It varies between 0 & 5ppm) or PO4 or anything else I can think of
right now. If adding trace elements is your reason, then you're
assuming that the salt mix you buy has the correct trace elements in it
(Some don't event get the Ca & alk. right).

I have been arguing with these nuckleheads for about 2-weeks regarding
unnecessary water changes. I have received 3-reasons that they do them.

1) In order to add trace elements/remove nitrate.
2) It's enjoyable
3) Because coral release toxic chemicals into the water ??

I think the real reason they do it is for a lack of understanding at the
chemical/biological level. It is easier for them to do a water change
than to grasp what is going on in their tank at a biological level.


BTW: It's not laziness either, I also have 4 FW tanks & they get 20%
changed every 2 weeks. Anyone got any live rock that works in FW?



Stop skirting the subject.
We still haven't seen a picture of your tank boog.
I will say, I'm finding this subject quite interesting
Fact or fiction: The toilet bowl effect.

You're basically telling us knuckle draggers that
if your eat, sleep and **** in water it some how stays clean enough
to live in. Call me silly, but isn't it true if you drink you
urine more than 3 times it gets toxic ?