How clean is too clean for a fry tank?

On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 18:17:33 -0600, Köi-Lö wrote:

"Jolly Fisherman" wrote in message
.. .
Then recently I started seeing bulges under parts of the algae sheets.
Not knowing what gas was under it I broke the algae sheet with a
siphon and sucked the gas out. Is this one of the reasons they don't
bother with it? Why wouldn't you use algae or certain nutrient-sponge
plants in fry grow-out tanks?
======================
I raise hundreds of GF and koi fry outdoors each year. I allow the algae to
grow at will. I also keep plants in all the outdoor fry tanks and tubs. See
website below.

Yes and large scale fish farmers grow out their fish in massive
outdoor tanks that cannot be algae wiped constantly either. I would
not attempt to debate that that approach is not viable, especially as
these creatures reproduce quite well in even larger and more
biologically complex environments.

While I appreciate everyone's responses and details of their
experiences what I'm really asking is why small to moderate scale
commercial breeders of many kinds or ornamental fish use such
immaculate and therefore artificial rearing tanks? I would think that
the type of rearing environments you or I or the other posters have
would be preferable.

Just wondering, Koi-Lo, how and where do you sell your fish?

On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 13:00:28 GMT, Jolly Fisherman
wrote:

While I appreciate everyone's responses and details of their
experiences what I'm really asking is why small to moderate scale
commercial breeders of many kinds or ornamental fish use such
immaculate and therefore artificial rearing tanks? I would think that
the type of rearing environments you or I or the other posters have
would be preferable.

Because some people believe all the nonsense about diseases spread in
anything other than sterile environment. After 30 years breeding
fishes I've never needed to keep fry in sterile tanks. I do use clean
tanks but, as I said before, fry grow fastest with continual feeding
and frequent water changes. It's just hard work!

--
Steve Wolstenholme Neural Planner Software

EasyNN-plus. The easy way to build neural networks.
http://www.easynn.com

On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 14:32:05 +0000, wrote:

On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 13:00:28 GMT, Jolly Fisherman
wrote:

While I appreciate everyone's responses and details of their
experiences what I'm really asking is why small to moderate scale
commercial breeders of many kinds or ornamental fish use such
immaculate and therefore artificial rearing tanks? I would think that
the type of rearing environments you or I or the other posters have
would be preferable.

Because some people believe all the nonsense about diseases spread in
anything other than sterile environment.

Uh huh. I thought there might be a real reason. If that is the logic
it totally misunderstands pathology, disease transmission, and the
role of microorganisms in heath. It is a bit bizarre of a miss when
the same ppl are relying on large colonies of _bacteria_ to run their
filters.

After 30 years breeding
fishes I've never needed to keep fry in sterile tanks. I do use clean
tanks but, as I said before, fry grow fastest with continual feeding
and frequent water changes. It's just hard work!

Makes sense to me

"Jolly Fisherman" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 18:17:33 -0600, Köi-Lö wrote:

"Jolly Fisherman" wrote in message
. ..
Then recently I started seeing bulges under parts of the algae sheets.
Not knowing what gas was under it I broke the algae sheet with a
siphon and sucked the gas out. Is this one of the reasons they don't
bother with it? Why wouldn't you use algae or certain nutrient-sponge
plants in fry grow-out tanks?
======================
I raise hundreds of GF and koi fry outdoors each year. I allow the algae
to
grow at will. I also keep plants in all the outdoor fry tanks and tubs.
See
website below.

Yes and large scale fish farmers grow out their fish in massive
outdoor tanks that cannot be algae wiped constantly either. I would
not attempt to debate that that approach is not viable, especially as
these creatures reproduce quite well in even larger and more
biologically complex environments.

While I appreciate everyone's responses and details of their
experiences what I'm really asking is why small to moderate scale
commercial breeders of many kinds or ornamental fish use such
immaculate and therefore artificial rearing tanks? I would think that
the type of rearing environments you or I or the other posters have
would be preferable.

In my opinion it is preferable. What they're raising are "hothouse"
flowers. How will they develop good immune systems in such a ultra clean
environment? What happens when they have to face the real world in a pond
or tank?


Just wondering, Koi-Lo, how and where do you sell your fish?

Most of them are sold in large lots to Aquarium and Pond stores in the
spring and early summer. The rest are sold locally through word of mouth.
That applies to my Shubunkin goldfish as well. The culls go into farm ponds
for mosquito control. I give them away. It's a self supporting hobby these
days. :-)
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 16:34:21 -0600, Köi-Lö wrote:

In my opinion it is preferable. What they're raising are "hothouse"
flowers. How will they develop good immune systems in such a ultra clean
environment? What happens when they have to face the real world in a pond
or tank?

I assume they don't care as they already got their money and it's easy
to just blame the customer for any problems that turn up down the line
with the fish.

Just wondering, Koi-Lo, how and where do you sell your fish?

Most of them are sold in large lots to Aquarium and Pond stores in the
spring and early summer. The rest are sold locally through word of mouth.
That applies to my Shubunkin goldfish as well. The culls go into farm ponds
for mosquito control. I give them away. It's a self supporting hobby these
days. :-)

Interesting. I wouldn't mind being able to one day at least partially
offset my aquaria expenses, but I'd imagine that's some ways down the
line...

Jolly Fisherman wrote:

Most of them are sold in large lots to Aquarium and Pond stores in the
spring and early summer.**The*rest*are*sold*locally*through*word*of *mouth.
That applies to my Shubunkin goldfish as well.**The*culls*go*into*farm*ponds
for mosquito control.**I*give*them*away.**It's*a*self*supportin g*hobby*these
days.**:-)

Interesting.**I*wouldn't*mind*being*able*to*one*da y*at*least*partially
offset my aquaria expenses, but I'd imagine that's some ways down the
line...

I currently have a tank with at least 40-50 dwarf neon rainbow fry swimming
around and more keep hatching every day. If I can keep them alive I might be
able to pay a few expenses :-).

--
It's turtles, all the way down

"Jolly Fisherman" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 16:34:21 -0600, Köi-Lö wrote:

In my opinion it is preferable. What they're raising are "hothouse"
flowers. How will they develop good immune systems in such a ultra clean
environment? What happens when they have to face the real world in a pond
or tank?

I assume they don't care as they already got their money and it's easy
to just blame the customer for any problems that turn up down the line
with the fish.

I would assume that's the case. I would also assume that's why so many
store bought fish have problems when we bring them home and they're immune
systems are suddenly bombarded with parasites and bacteria they never
encountered before. My young fish are raised outdoors and either overcome
these natural challenges or perish long before they're sold. Very few die.
Fortunately we haven't had parasite problems in years. All new fish are
quarantined and treated for parasites before they are added to the tanks or
ponds.

Just wondering, Koi-Lo, how and where do you sell your fish?

Most of them are sold in large lots to Aquarium and Pond stores in the
spring and early summer. The rest are sold locally through word of mouth.
That applies to my Shubunkin goldfish as well. The culls go into farm
ponds
for mosquito control. I give them away. It's a self supporting hobby
these
days. :-)

Interesting. I wouldn't mind being able to one day at least partially
offset my aquaria expenses, but I'd imagine that's some ways down the
line...

I don't see how you can raise enough fish in aquariums to offset the cost of
the hobby. It's much more economical to raise them outdoors. That is
unless you raise something that goes for a really nice price like Discus.
Raising Angel fish and other inexpensive fish to sell for .25 each wont do
it.
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

On Thu, 23 Nov 2006 21:20:14 -0600, Köi-Lö wrote:

snip

Interesting. I wouldn't mind being able to one day at least partially
offset my aquaria expenses, but I'd imagine that's some ways down the
line...

I don't see how you can raise enough fish in aquariums to offset the cost of
the hobby. It's much more economical to raise them outdoors. That is
unless you raise something that goes for a really nice price like Discus.
Raising Angel fish and other inexpensive fish to sell for .25 each wont do
it.

That's why I think even "partially" offsetting some expenses is quite
a ways away. I'm culling heavily the angels and gourami and giving
them away to family, friends and a local nonprofit. I'm not going to
even bother raising gourami fry from future breedings. Big, young
gourami are just too cheap in retail stores.

But I do think it might be fun to take in a few dollars once in a
while with other, more exotic kinds of fish or plants. But I don't
expect to turn a profit from this hobby. Especially not on the small
scale or minimal efforts I'm willing to invest in it.

Discus is where both money & broad interest seems to be for
freshwater. My next experiments hopefully will be with apistos (wish
me luck). This is all about fun and challenge for me. I don't need
or expect another business from it.

Jolly Fisherman wrote:

Discus is where both money & broad interest seems to be for
freshwater. My next experiments hopefully will be with apistos (wish
me luck). This is all about fun and challenge for me. I don't need
or expect another business from it.

The professional breeders I have traded with were mostly in Discus
breeding, although these same breeders also bred angels and Afrcan
cichlids. I assume they were making money at this (never asked), but
they are still in this same location in So. El Monte, CA today.
My main experience was the same as Koi-Lo, I have bred shubunkins and
Koi, but I have made money with the Koi, and a did not give that much
special attention or additional care to them other than a good
environment and some powdered Spirulina Flake.
I also have bred Mbuna and Tanganyika cichlids. As with the Koi, I
think the Tanganyika at least paid for themselves. And of coarse I have
had livebearers do their thing, but that hardly counts as breeding for
me (at least the way I have done this, as I do not want to insult
professional guppy beeders would breed magnificant strains of guppies).
What it come down to in my view is a qualtiy environment, which is what
about everyone here has basically alluded to. Everytime I have been
successful (often by accident) the environment was in excellent
condition and this included anemones, starfish and similar in my marine
tanks.

Carl.
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/ClearPond.html

"carlrs" wrote in message
oups.com...
I also have bred Mbuna and Tanganyika cichlids.
=============
These cost me money to raise so I stopped. There wasn't enough demand for
them and I ended up with a about 200 I had to finally give away. Plus these
can't be kept outdoors where I live and were just too much work.
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*