Bo0ger1, show me your tank...

One more thing...


Boog, what I'm confused about here is, you only have 1 coral
and it's a hardy coarl at that. So perhaps your tank setup and no
water changes ...

If you have a question regarding the science I have mentioned in responses
above OR science I have not mentioned, I will try and explain things to you.

I am not going to respond anymore to your "perhaps"-like nonsensical
comments. Wanna talk about "science" ? Because that's what this thread is
all about dude.

We would be more than happy to make a few suggestions...

I would be more than happy to answer or comment on any science related
responses you have.

We get the fact already that you had a chemistry class or two.

One or two? You made me laugh a little.


So go out and spend ...

That seems to be the motto in this NG.

I think we would all like to never change our water ....

Really? Could of fooled me! Than try it.

"bo0ger1" .@. wrote in message
...
One more thing...


Boog, what I'm confused about here is, you only have 1 coral
and it's a hardy coarl at that. So perhaps your tank setup and no
water changes ...

If you have a question regarding the science I have mentioned in responses
above OR science I have not mentioned, I will try and explain things to
you.

I am not going to respond anymore to your "perhaps"-like nonsensical
comments. Wanna talk about "science" ? Because that's what this thread
is all about dude.





It's rec.aquaria.marine.reefs NOT sci.aquaria.marine.reefs

PERHAPS, my nonsensical tone belongs in this news group and yours does not.
This is a newsgroup for reef keepers not evil scientists.
We use products and do things based on results and experience.

The problem is you razzle dazzle us with science
but don't participate in the hobby. 1 coral hardly qualifies you as a
keeper.
You might as well as keep goldfish for all we care.

I understand there is an element of science to everyday life,
but you definitely take it to the next level AND with much attitude.

Use your science with real live corals.

You still have NOT told us of your complete setup.
I'd be more accepting if you were more willing to share more details.









We would be more than happy to make a few suggestions...

I would be more than happy to answer or comment on any science related
responses you have.

We get the fact already that you had a chemistry class or two.

One or two? You made me laugh a little.


So go out and spend ...

That seems to be the motto in this NG.

I think we would all like to never change our water ....

Really? Could of fooled me! Than try it.

Boog, what I'm confused about here is, you only have 1 coral
and it's a hardy coarl at that. So perhaps your tank setup and no
water changes ...

"bo0ger1" .@. wrote on Sat, 02 Dec 2006:
If you have a question regarding the science I have mentioned in responses
above OR science I have not mentioned, I will try and explain things to you.

You're radically overestimating your own level of scientific knowledge.

You don't seem to appreciate that reef tanks are as much an engineering
enterprise (or even artistic) as they are science.

This is why we care about demonstrated results, not just your unusual theories.
You CLAIM that water changes are not necessary for reef tanks, but in fact
all you offer are your theories on what science would support your strategy.

What you never acknowledge is the possibility that biochemistry may be going
on that you are NOT aware of. (And you can't possibly know 100% of the
biochemical needs of 100% of reef organisms.)

But most important, you've never DEMONSTRATED success with your approach in
a reef tank. You started with your hypothesis (water changes are not necessary
in a reef tank), and you lept right to believing the conclusion (all you reef
tank fools that do water changes are wasting your time), but you've missed the
most important part: the actual experiments. You're a horrible scientist.

That's why, when you finally broke down and admitted that in reality you had
only a fish-only tank, and just in the last few weeks got your very first
coral (and a hardy one at that), nobody is very impressed. EVERYONE knows that
there is much more challenge is successfully growing difficult (e.g. stony)
corals over a long period of time (e.g. years), than in just doing a fish-only
tank, or a hardy coral for a couple of weeks. Lots of bad strategies seem
just fine in a short time period or without sensitive corals.

If you want to be taken seriously as a scientist, try to learn the difference
between hypothesis and conclusion, and maybe you should keep quiet until you've
got some actual evidence. Especially when your theories contradict the
practice of real reef keepers, who -- unlike you -- have actually demonstrated
success with sensitive corals over a long period of time.

-- Don
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
Beware the lollipop of mediocrity. Lick it once and you will suck forever.

You're radically overestimating your own level of scientific knowledge.

Your opinion. Care to back your opinion up with science?

You don't seem to appreciate that reef tanks are as much an engineering
enterprise (or even artistic) as they are science.

Nope. It's 100% biochemistry. Period.


This is why we care about demonstrated results, not just your unusual
theories.

Are you assuming I am alone with my findings? I am the only one that has
realized WC are not necessary? Poor assumption.

You CLAIM that water changes are not necessary for reef tanks, but in fact
all you offer are your theories on what science would support your
strategy.

My CLAIM? Not just MINE.


What you never acknowledge is the possibility that biochemistry may be
going
on that you are NOT aware of.

This was my point from the beginning. That the majority of you do not know
what is going on at the biological level.

(And you can't possibly know 100% of the
biochemical needs of 100% of reef organisms.)

Your correct. How would knowing this or not knowing this make any
difference for a WC or NWC tank. Is the water in your aquarium in better
shape than mine?

But most important, you've never DEMONSTRATED success with your approach
in
a reef tank.

Are any of you people actually reading my responses? Which of my water
parameters that I have given will not support coral life? Don't give me
that coral toxin crap either, I have a skimmer. Plus what percentage of the
coral toxins are you removing with a 10% water change? ANSWER: Only 10%.

You started with your hypothesis (water changes are not necessary
in a reef tank), and you lept right to believing the conclusion (all you
reef
tank fools that do water changes are wasting your time), but you've missed
the
most important part: the actual experiments. You're a horrible scientist.

Again, your opinion. Wanna talk science? Or do you want to keep shouting
your opinion while you slap your chest with your fist?

That's why, when you finally broke down and admitted that in reality you
had
only a fish-only tank

I said this from the VERY beginning. I even mentioned I had a FOWLR in
OTHER previous threads (if you have been following along with the booger
saga).

, and just in the last few weeks got your very first
coral (and a hardy one at that)

What does this mean? Xenia are not coral? Their half coral? 1/3 coral?

, nobody is very impressed. EVERYONE knows that
there is much more challenge is successfully growing difficult (e.g.
stony)
corals over a long period of time (e.g. years), than in just doing a
fish-only
tank, or a hardy coral for a couple of weeks.
Lots of bad strategies seem
just fine in a short time period or without sensitive corals.

Here we go again with the "sensitive coral" strategy. Which of your WC
water chemistry parameters are better than mine?

You are making the assumption that WC guarantees success in some way with
"sensitive coral". Poor assumption.


If you want to be taken seriously as a scientist,

I think it is the audience that takes credit for that, not me.

try to learn the difference
between hypothesis and conclusion,

Lol.

and maybe you should keep quiet until you've
got some actual evidence.

Maybe you should keep quite until you are ready to talk science with the
adults.

Especially when your theories contradict the
practice of real reef keepers

Contradict with the "practices of reef keepers". You really think I am
alone here don't you? Very delusional aren't you?

Please come back with some Science!


, who -- unlike you -- have actually demonstrated
success with sensitive corals over a long period of time.

-- Don
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Don Geddis
http://reef.geddis.org/
Beware the lollipop of mediocrity. Lick it once and you will suck
forever.

I wrote:
This is why we care about demonstrated results, not just your unusual
theories.

"bo0ger1" .@. wrote on Sat, 02 Dec 2006:
Are you assuming I am alone with my findings? I am the only one that has
realized WC are not necessary? Poor assumption.

It would be far more interesting to hear about a long-time reefkeeper, who
has successfully kept a tank growing stony corals for multiple years, all the
while using only a skimmer and live rock/sand, but no water changes and no
refugium or mangroves. Only dosing Kent's Essential Elements.

After all, that is your claim, isn't it? That one can successfully grow a
coral garden of stony (e.g. acropora) corals without water changes? With no
other special maintenance, merely stop doing the water changes?

Yet, you seem to be the only one on this group who supports that strategy.
But you don't have even one multi-year stony coral reef tank which has been
maintained in this way.

This is why your claims are not credible.

What you never acknowledge is the possibility that biochemistry may be
going on that you are NOT aware of.

This was my point from the beginning. That the majority of you do not know
what is going on at the biological level.

Perhaps I emphasized the wrong word. Biochemistry may be going on that
YOU are not aware of.

You have never admitted that your own knowledge may be incomplete. (And water
changes are one approach to dealing with incomplete knowledge of biochemistry,
which we all -- even you -- must suffer from.)

(And you can't possibly know 100% of the biochemical needs of 100% of reef
organisms.)

Your correct. How would knowing this or not knowing this make any
difference for a WC or NWC tank. Is the water in your aquarium in better
shape than mine?

Yes, probably my water is better.

Especially for ionic or organic compounds that you aren't currently testing
for, but yet which are bioactive.

Are any of you people actually reading my responses? Which of my water
parameters that I have given will not support coral life? Don't give me
that coral toxin crap either, I have a skimmer.

What proof do you have that a skimmer is a sufficient solution to the topic
of coral toxins? Where is your SCIENCE, mister science boy?

Do you use a charcoal or UV filter? Lots of reefkeepers swear by them as well.
What function do you think they serve, if any, compared to just a skimmer and
live rock/sand?

Also: You realize, I hope, that your skimmer slowly removes "good" things
(like salt) from your water volume, along with "bad" proteins. What is your
strategy for replacing the lost salt? (Salt also decreases due to splashing,
"salt creep", etc.) I'm sure you have evaporation too, and must add fresh
water regularly. How do you keep your level of salinity constant, using only
freshwater and Essential Elements?

Do you measure your calcium levels? Calcium in the water volume gets used up
by corals (and some other marine organisms). How do you keep your level of
calcium sufficiently high?

Your answers to all these questions betray a naive, arrogant, chem major in
college with no practical experience at keeping a reef tank. You think that
what you read in a book answers all questions that need to be answered, without
any need for the complexity of the real world.

Contradict with the "practices of reef keepers". You really think I am
alone here don't you? Very delusional aren't you?

Yes, I do think you're alone.

Would you like to point to specific individuals, either on this newsgroup or
else published marine scientists, that agree with you?

Who do you have in mind that recommends growing stony corals without water
changes? (Or macroflora.)

All I see is you. Someone with a lot of opinions, but no experience.

-- Don
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Don Geddis http://reef.geddis.org/
If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We
might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.
-- Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handey [1999]

Your correct. How would knowing this or not knowing this make any
difference for a WC or NWC tank. Is the water in your aquarium in better
shape than mine?

Yes, probably my water is better.

Probably? Elaborate here.


What proof do you have that a skimmer is a sufficient solution to the
topic
of coral toxins? Where is your SCIENCE, mister science boy?

It's Dr. Science Boy. Skimmers will remove any organic compound that is
amphiphilic in nature. Which coral toxin do you know of that is not
amphiphilic?

Do you use a charcoal or UV filter? Lots of reefkeepers swear by them as
well.
What function do you think they serve, if any, compared to just a skimmer
and
live rock/sand?

No, I don't use them. Charcoal is used as a filter agent. Not necessary.

UV filter? UV filters are used to reduce the amounts of waterborne
pathogens in your water. I don't recommend them.

Also: You realize, I hope, that your skimmer slowly removes "good" things
(like salt) from your water volume, along with "bad" proteins.

Ah, yep. Do you know how they remove proteins smart guy?

What is your strategy for replacing the lost salt? (Salt also decreases
due to splashing,
"salt creep", etc.) I'm sure you have evaporation too, and must add fresh
water regularly. How do you keep your level of salinity constant, using
only
freshwater and Essential Elements?

I add salt when salinity drops below acceptable levels. I top off with kalk
and RO water.


Do you measure your calcium levels? Calcium in the water volume gets used
up
by corals (and some other marine organisms). How do you keep your level
of
calcium sufficiently high?

I adjust my Ca levels with kalk. I do not directly measure Ca++ however I
do measure my total alkalinity. If my alkalinity and my pH are in
acceptable ranges than most likely my Ca++ is OK.

Your answers to all these questions betray a naive, arrogant, chem major
in
college with no practical experience at keeping a reef tank. You think
that
what you read in a book answers all questions that need to be answered,
without
any need for the complexity of the real world.

No. Science will answer all my questions that need to be answered. Does
your aquarium not obey the laws of science?

***Don. Why do YOU do water changes?

To quote you boog...sorry Dr. Boog:

"Ditto! I do the same thing, only I add Kent Marine essential elements
1once
a month or so. No water changes in 2-years! Just a little algae I need to
remedy.

These people here (for the most part) are brain washed into thinking you
need to water changes all the time."

So say that I don't want algae in my tank...(which, if I understand
correctly, indicate the presence of too many nitrates and phosphates
because algae use them as food)...should I still follow your system?

These people here (for the most part) are brain washed into thinking you
need to water changes all the time."

So say that I don't want algae in my tank...(which, if I understand
correctly, indicate the presence of too many nitrates and phosphates
because algae use them as food)...should I still follow your system?

I have a small patch in the back of the aquarium. It is starting to be
consumed (I added more red legged hermits). My algae is almost gone.

Are you suggesting that WC people 'never' get any algae? Please!

It's almost pointless talking to you No WC boobs.
But it amazes me that you refer to the rest of us as brainwashed.
We are a very large majority...we need more than what you give.

Write a publication, start a web site, share your info.
All you do is write in rec.aquaria.marine.reefs and ridicule everyone
for changing their water.

AGAIN...You still have NOT told us your complete
tank setup AND maint. routine.
How about a picture.

Remember this: Bo0ger1, show me your tank...


"Pat" wrote in message
...
To quote you boog...sorry Dr. Boog:

"Ditto! I do the same thing, only I add Kent Marine essential elements
1once
a month or so. No water changes in 2-years! Just a little algae I need
to
remedy.

These people here (for the most part) are brain washed into thinking you
need to water changes all the time."

So say that I don't want algae in my tank...(which, if I understand
correctly, indicate the presence of too many nitrates and phosphates
because algae use them as food)...should I still follow your system?