is it white-spot, velvet or both?

I just did some checking; I'm not that familiar with Velvet, but it
seems the spots on fish are a golden color rather than white... Otherwise it
does seem to somewhat match the symptoms you describe. I still think there
was a bacterial problem as well though.

Here's a link for Velvet Disease information:
http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/disease/p/velvet.htm

One thing the site says that I question: "Like Ich, Oödinium is present in
most commercial tanks"; I don't know much about Oödinium (the Velvet
parasite) but every scientific report I've read about Ich says it dies off
if it can't find a host... Maybe in COMMERCIAL tanks it's present, because
they're always introducing new fish into them. And as for Oödinium (Velvet)
the same article also says "They must find a host within 24 hours, or die."
So again I ask, if it's in your tank, where did it come from?

Fedor


wrote in message
ups.com...
Is it White-spot, Velvet, or both?

I have three fresh water tropical tanks
One 45 litre shallow tank for growing on corydoras and Ancistrus fry
One 70 litre tank which will be home to my Ancistrus so they can breed
in peace, but currently houses an assortment of tetras.
One 170 litre heavily planted tank with a large piece of mopani wood
and 2" deep, fine gravel, which is my 'show tank' , and contains;

2 ancistrus (7 years old)
3 albino corydoras(1 year old - 1.5" long)
3 clown loaches (5 years old - 3" long)
2 upside down catfish (5 years old - 2" long)
1 whiptail catfish(7 years old) - 4 " long)
2 siamese flying foxes (2 years old - 3" long)
8 congo tetras (6 months old - 2" long)
6 bleeding heart tetras (1 year old - 1.5" long)

Nitrites 0
Nitrates 0
Ph 7.2
Gh 160
Kh 140
Temp 24 (75)

(the tap water is virtually the same as my aquarium)

I have not lost a fish in four years (and hardly had any illnesses at
all), the catfish are spawning regularly and I successfully raise the
fry and sell them. All the other fish were in peak condition and
regularly display courtship behaviour.

I feed flake food and catfish pellets once a day, with frozen
bloodworm and brineshrimp once or twice a week, and the odd garden pea
or courgette for the catfish.

I don't use CO2, the light is on a timer for 10 hours a day, and I use
a liquid plant food once a week

Waterchanges are once a week and I change roughly 12%, gently cleaning
the filter.
For several months I have not gravel vac'd much of the substrate as
all the bottom-feeding fish and numerous malasian trumpet snails keep
it pretty clean and the plants are fairly thick.
I use cold treated water to re-fill the aquarium which helps to
trigger spawning.

For several weeks I have noticed one fish or another flash against a
plant or rock - just once, every now and then. So I have been watching
closely for white-spot, but seen nothing else to signify its presence.

About four weeks ago one of my albino corydoras suddenly became ill.
She developed blood under the skin on her back and became very
listless.
I removed her to one of the tubs I use for newly hatched fry, and went
to the cupboard for my interpet anti-internal bacteria treatment. The
bottle was empty - it had all leaked out. Wondering what to do I
decided to briefly bath her in Methylene blue and then add some human
amoxicillin to the water in her tub (this was the first time I had
tried doing this - and you cannot buy fishmox in the UK)
The next day she was the same, I went out and bought some interpet
anti-internal bacteria treatment, changed her water and added the
medication. Over the next couple of days she got worse, lost all
ability to balance or swim and her skin and fins began to rot badly -
eventually I put her out of her misery using a 25% dose of top quality
Gin which I have read about on the web (again something I have never
had to do before, she died pretty peacefully 30 minutes later)

Still thinking this was a bacterial infection I treated the show tank
just to be safe.

Two weeks went by with no further illness, then I started noticing an
increase in the number of visible trumpet snails in the tank and I
realised I had not seen the clown loaches for a couple of days, then
I saw white salt-grain sized spots on the bleeding-heart tetras - just
a few, mostly on the tails.
Thinking I knew what was going on I did a 30% waterchange (warming the
added water) and dosed the tank with interpet anti white-spot, which I
got from my cupboard.
I increased the temperature to about 80 degrees, and turned off the
light.
The medicine must have been four years old and after a couple of days
it became clear it had had little or no effect. I went out and bought
a new bottle and on day four of the treatment I added a full dose of
the new stuff. By now all the bleeding heart tetras were badly covered
in salt-grain white spots and were hanging near the surface, not
eating and clamping their fins, their gills and mouths were moving
very fast, and some were developing secondary bacterial infections, I
added 250 milligrams of amoxicillin to the tank to try and combat the
infections.
The clown loaches were now out of their hiding place but looking very
ill although they had only one or two white spots each, they actually
looked more like they had got velvet, but it was very subtle.
The next morning two of the tetras were dead.Next day two more died,
and the last two died the following day.

By now I was wondering if it could all be velvet and maybe it just
looked like white-spot on the bleeding heart tetras? Could that have
been why neither dose of white spot medication seemed to help?
I did a 50% water change and added a carbon filter for 24 hours, the
next day I did a 30% water change, removed the carbon and treated the
tank for velvet (again using interpet product)
The clown loaches were listless, not eating, not moving around much
and by now looking pretty velvety, they were breathing fast, and lying
around on the gravel.
They also had a couple of the white-spots each here and there.
Two days later and two of them were dead.
As I write this the last one is lying on the gravel upside down
looking as though it will die. It is four days since I added the
velvet meds, I have just done a 50% waterchange and thoroughly vac'd
the gravel (I read on the web that by removing as many spores from the
gravel as possible you help to halt the progress of the parasite -
makes sense once you think of it)
I have re-filled the tank using warm water and added a half-strength
dose of velvet medication

Up til now none of the other fish have been affected at all, however
one (not both) of my upside down catfish is now covered all over in
small (salt-grain size) yellow blobs - not spheres like with the white-
spot, more like tiny pustules. Could this be another way for velvet to
manifest itself?


Can anyone please tell me the following......

What do you think was wrong with the original corydoras?
The bleeding heart tetras?
The clown loaches?
And now the upside down catfish?

Could this have all been velvet?
Do you think I had velvet and white spot all at once?
Why does none of the medication I have used seem to have worked?

What can I do to stop this now?

Thanks for any help


Chris Nuttall

Thanks for the reply - i had not considered that it could all be
bacterial

I am going to remove the upside down catfish and treat elsewhere as it
is now the only sick fish left alive.
It now has a yellow dusting on its flanks as well as the spots - i am
at aloss really with so many different symptoms all at once.

By the way the zero nitrates is indeed a mistake, they are about
30ppm.

chris

wrote in message
oups.com...
Thanks for the reply - i had not considered that it could all be
bacterial

I am going to remove the upside down catfish and treat elsewhere as it
is now the only sick fish left alive.
It now has a yellow dusting on its flanks as well as the spots - i am
at aloss really with so many different symptoms all at once.

By the way the zero nitrates is indeed a mistake, they are about
30ppm.
===========================
You can bring in parasites on new aquarium plants. Did you happen to buy a
new plant?
--

RM....
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

YES!
i added some new plants recently - not too long before the first fish
got ill - do you think that's it?

Having read that ick and velvet only survive a few hours or a couple
of days at most without a host fish i had discounted that idea, the
LFS keeps aquarium plants in shallow water-filled trays which are
unheated, not sure if the lack of heat would kill the parasites or
simply slow down thier life cycle so they last longer.

which parasites could it be?

chris

(The upside down catfish is hanging in there with his yellow spots and
dusty areas, not gilling too fast and not listless at all.)

wrote in message
ups.com...
YES!
i added some new plants recently - not too long before the first fish
got ill - do you think that's it?

It sure sounds like it to me. I quarantine plants and treat them with
QuickCure or AquaSol.

Having read that ick and velvet only survive a few hours or a couple
of days at most without a host fish i had discounted that idea, the
LFS keeps aquarium plants in shallow water-filled trays which are
unheated, not sure if the lack of heat would kill the parasites or
simply slow down thier life cycle so they last longer.

It would slow the life cycle but they'd still need a host to survive. Are
there any fish at all in the trays?

which parasites could it be?

That I couldn't tell you.


chris

(The upside down catfish is hanging in there with his yellow spots and
dusty areas, not gilling too fast and not listless at all.)

I hope you're treating them with something for parasites?!?!?! I like
QuickCure but it may not be safe for any loaches in your tank.
--

RM....
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

I'm not sure that it is ALL bacterial, but the fin rot and bloody
patches certainly indicate bacterial activity. I read your later posts
also... The gold spots and dusty patches that you mention do sound like
Velvet (I have never had it in a tank but I have had White Spot once and I
do not want it again; all I know about Velvet is what I read online about
it). Bacteria are always present, and if a fish is weakened by a parasitic
invasion, the bacteria will use the opportunity to also invade. Most all
"pests" as such are opportunistic in this way. This is why the best defense
against such attacks is to do what you can to constantly keep the fishes
immune systems strong and keep the fish as healthy as possible. Plants
should only be purchased from tanks that do not have fish, and it sounds
like that was the case with yours, but perhaps they had been in contact with
infested fish or tanks at some point before you got them? I don't know, it's
just a thought... But once your tanks/fish have been healthy for a period
and nothing new has been added, there should be no Velvet or White Spot
parasites in your tank (or course there will always be bacteria). The only
way to be safe is to quarantine all new additions (fish and plants) for
longer than the parasites life cycle. Since I do not have a convenient way
to do that, my practice is to avoid introducing anything new into my tank,
no matter how much I'd like to. When I do have to for some reason, I'm
always worried about it. The one time when I did get White Spot (many years
ago) I had added two Plecostomus catfish. My tank is not planted anymore so
I don't have that to be concerned with. One thing you can do in the future
is to remove any sickly acting fish immediately to a hospital tank before
the bacteria can spread, and you can always expect a bacterial attack at
some point as the fish is stressed/weakened by parasites or other maladies.
The number of bacteria in the water has a direct relationship on whether the
fish can fight it off or not. Too many bacteria and they become overwhelmed.
It is also important to know and understand the life cycles of parasites and
to be able to identify them. A big part of my enjoyment of aquaria has been
in reading about fish diseases, parasites, anatomy, behavior and other
scientific and technical materials on web sites and it has also been handy
to know these things at times. I save web articles on my PC that I think may
be useful in the future, especially about diseases, in case I may encounter
any and have need to identify them and attempt to effect a cure. When you
think about the threats from bacteria and parasites, combined with keeping
fish in such small close-quartered environments as our tanks are, it is
almost asking for trouble, in some ways. One must be diligent and even then
things can happen.

Fedor



wrote in message
oups.com...
Thanks for the reply - i had not considered that it could all be
bacterial

I am going to remove the upside down catfish and treat elsewhere as it
is now the only sick fish left alive.
It now has a yellow dusting on its flanks as well as the spots - i am
at aloss really with so many different symptoms all at once.

By the way the zero nitrates is indeed a mistake, they are about
30ppm.

chris

Fedor,


Thanks for your replies - it is good to have someone elses thoughts
when you are unsure what is right or wrong.
i have posted this on yahoo groups but everyone there only seems
interested in arguing!

I am begining to form an idea of how it may all have gone wrong

The tank was overstocked, i never cleaned all the gravel, and i
regularly added cold water to get the catfish to spawn.
These things together would have had an effect on the fish even though
they all looked great, then i added some plants, some of which i know
were from a regular customer at the LFS who has a CO2 setup at home,
he brings in plants when he has too many and the guy at the fish shop
sells them (actually he gave me a load to keep me sweet because i
supply him with catfish) anyway, i think i remember him saying that
the guy had just brought the plants in recently - this would mean that
parasites may have still been ailve on them or in their water.

I think that the corydoras died of an infection called red pest,
possibly brought on the the attack of parasites, the others developed
parasite infestations later and their bacterial infections were as a
result of this.

The thing is now i need to get rid of the parasites which i believe to
be velvet and white spot at the same time. Do you know of a treatment
for both together?
I have read about copper which is used for ridding a tank of snails,
but i dont like the idea of it, it is a poison. And it would damage my
plants.
There is also methylene blue but it will have side effects too and i
don't know how effective it is.
Like you i subscribe to the idea of minimal intervention, letting
nature (such as it is in a fish tank!) look after itself, so i may
just keep on removing sick fishes, changing the water, cleaning the
gravel etc etc and hoping the fishes iminutiy in the main tank takes
care of it


If anyone does know a way of dealing with white spot and velvet at the
same time please share it with me


Thanks


chris

wrote in message
ups.com...

If anyone does know a way of dealing with white spot and velvet at the
same time please share it with me
==========================
Google tropical+fish+diseases. These parasites aren't going to go away on
their own. For white spot aka ick, I use QuickCure or AquraSol. I don't
remember my fish ever having velvet. I'm sure you will find much information
on the web for treating velvet.
--
RM....
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

RM

there are no fish in the trays in the LFS, they are small unheated
plastic trays on the floor (sounds terrible but it is actually a
really nice shop) if the cold water slowed the life cycle down enough
then maybe the parasites survived long enough there? i think it could
have been less than 24 hrs

I am treating the upside down catfish with interpet anti slime and
velvet - he has fewer spots than yesterday, he looks paler than his
healthy companion but otherwise he is acting fine - dare i say it but
he might be the only fish to have got ill and recovered

No need to worry about the loaches in the main tank as they are all
dead now
had them for five years - a little sad really

I have spent every spare minute for the last few weeks googling velvet
and ick, you may not apreciate it being in the US but most of the
content on the web originates there. which means that a lot of what i
am reading talks about US-only medication which i can't buy, but i am
learning quite a lot all the same. I emailed the federation of british
aquatic societies and they were extremely helpful, i hope they dont
mind me sharing.......

Here is his reply to my original post with my further questions and
his further answers

1. Occasional flicking is normal.

didn't know that - thanks




2. The cory possibly had "red blotch disease". Not sure of cause - I
reckon bacterial. Cory expert Ian Fuller treats this using Melafix
(made by API).

I had read about a bacterial infection called red pest,
possibly the same thing - i will buy some melafix asap




3. Bleeding heart tetras get a specfic viral infection that looks like
Lymphocystis (small whitish blobs)- no cure, and prob. triggered by
stress.

Didn't know that either, it would explain why my congo
tetras have been unaffected by the white spots and why it didn't
respond to white spot treatments - does it look exactly like white
spot?

See attached picture taken by myself.




4. Amoxycillin isnt much use on fish as it treats gram-positive
bacteria, whereas most major bacterial problems of ornamental fish are
gram-negative. Be aware that antibiotics sold for humans can be
different formats as those sold for use on fish. Some formats contain
additional chemicals that can be toxic to fish.

Wasn't sure about doing this, it was a bit of desparation



5. Sudden emergence of snails plus fast gill beats in fish suggests to
me low oxygen problems, which could be root cause of the latter
deaths.
I had attributed the increase in snails to the clown
loaches no longer eating them - could lack of oxygen be due to the
illnesses / medication in the water?

I guess the treatments may have upset the bacterial flora of the
aquarium, causing a proliferation of oxygen-consuming bacteria? But
low oxygen might reflect accumulating organic wastes in the gravel,
resulting in increasing "BOD" (biological oxygen demand) which
eventually reached a critical level. Hard to say.








The picture of bleeding heart tetra virus looked like a fluffy fungus
- not what mine had, i think it was ick. perhaps i just treated it too
late

Thanks for your help - i genuinely apreciate it


chris

wrote in message
ps.com...
RM

there are no fish in the trays in the LFS, they are small unheated
plastic trays on the floor (sounds terrible but it is actually a
really nice shop) if the cold water slowed the life cycle down enough
then maybe the parasites survived long enough there? i think it could
have been less than 24 hrs

I am treating the upside down catfish with interpet anti slime and
velvet - he has fewer spots than yesterday, he looks paler than his
healthy companion but otherwise he is acting fine - dare i say it but
he might be the only fish to have got ill and recovered

Well that's good news. :-) Make sure you keep his water pristine and well
oxygenated during treatment.

No need to worry about the loaches in the main tank as they are all
dead now
had them for five years - a little sad really

Oh no! :*( Next time you need to treat the plants before adding them to
your tank. Put them in some tank water and a very bright place, or use a
light over them. Keep them warm to hatch out any parasite cysts.... and add
the medication as you would if treating a fish with parasites. I too have
brought home "problems" with new plants in the past.

I have spent every spare minute for the last few weeks googling velvet
and ick, you may not apreciate it being in the US but most of the
content on the web originates there. which means that a lot of what i
am reading talks about US-only medication which i can't buy, but i am
learning quite a lot all the same. I emailed the federation of british
aquatic societies and they were extremely helpful, i hope they dont
mind me sharing.......

They are probably happy you share any information the give you if it helps
save fish lives. I think what you call "red blotch" is what we call
"contagious ulcers" a condition caused by bacteria that is almost impossible
to treat. It wiped out my entire pond back in the late 1990s. :*(


Here is his reply to my original post with my further questions and
his further answers

1. Occasional flicking is normal.

didn't know that - thanks

2. The cory possibly had "red blotch disease". Not sure of cause - I
reckon bacterial. Cory expert Ian Fuller treats this using Melafix
(made by API).

I had read about a bacterial infection called red pest,
possibly the same thing - i will buy some melafix asap




3. Bleeding heart tetras get a specfic viral infection that looks like
Lymphocystis (small whitish blobs)- no cure, and prob. triggered by
stress.

Didn't know that either, it would explain why my congo
tetras have been unaffected by the white spots and why it didn't
respond to white spot treatments - does it look exactly like white
spot?

See attached picture taken by myself.




4. Amoxycillin isnt much use on fish as it treats gram-positive
bacteria, whereas most major bacterial problems of ornamental fish are
gram-negative. Be aware that antibiotics sold for humans can be
different formats as those sold for use on fish. Some formats contain
additional chemicals that can be toxic to fish.

Wasn't sure about doing this, it was a bit of desparation



5. Sudden emergence of snails plus fast gill beats in fish suggests to
me low oxygen problems, which could be root cause of the latter
deaths.
I had attributed the increase in snails to the clown
loaches no longer eating them - could lack of oxygen be due to the
illnesses / medication in the water?

I guess the treatments may have upset the bacterial flora of the
aquarium, causing a proliferation of oxygen-consuming bacteria? But
low oxygen might reflect accumulating organic wastes in the gravel,
resulting in increasing "BOD" (biological oxygen demand) which
eventually reached a critical level. Hard to say.

The picture of bleeding heart tetra virus looked like a fluffy fungus
- not what mine had, i think it was ick. perhaps i just treated it too
late

Thanks for your help - i genuinely apreciate it


chris

--

RM....
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö