is it white-spot, velvet or both?

Thanks for the reply - i had not considered that it could all be
bacterial

I am going to remove the upside down catfish and treat elsewhere as it
is now the only sick fish left alive.
It now has a yellow dusting on its flanks as well as the spots - i am
at aloss really with so many different symptoms all at once.

By the way the zero nitrates is indeed a mistake, they are about
30ppm.

chris

wrote in message
oups.com...
Thanks for the reply - i had not considered that it could all be
bacterial

I am going to remove the upside down catfish and treat elsewhere as it
is now the only sick fish left alive.
It now has a yellow dusting on its flanks as well as the spots - i am
at aloss really with so many different symptoms all at once.

By the way the zero nitrates is indeed a mistake, they are about
30ppm.
===========================
You can bring in parasites on new aquarium plants. Did you happen to buy a
new plant?
--

RM....
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

YES!
i added some new plants recently - not too long before the first fish
got ill - do you think that's it?

Having read that ick and velvet only survive a few hours or a couple
of days at most without a host fish i had discounted that idea, the
LFS keeps aquarium plants in shallow water-filled trays which are
unheated, not sure if the lack of heat would kill the parasites or
simply slow down thier life cycle so they last longer.

which parasites could it be?

chris

(The upside down catfish is hanging in there with his yellow spots and
dusty areas, not gilling too fast and not listless at all.)

wrote in message
ups.com...
YES!
i added some new plants recently - not too long before the first fish
got ill - do you think that's it?

It sure sounds like it to me. I quarantine plants and treat them with
QuickCure or AquaSol.

Having read that ick and velvet only survive a few hours or a couple
of days at most without a host fish i had discounted that idea, the
LFS keeps aquarium plants in shallow water-filled trays which are
unheated, not sure if the lack of heat would kill the parasites or
simply slow down thier life cycle so they last longer.

It would slow the life cycle but they'd still need a host to survive. Are
there any fish at all in the trays?

which parasites could it be?

That I couldn't tell you.


chris

(The upside down catfish is hanging in there with his yellow spots and
dusty areas, not gilling too fast and not listless at all.)

I hope you're treating them with something for parasites?!?!?! I like
QuickCure but it may not be safe for any loaches in your tank.
--

RM....
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

I'm not sure that it is ALL bacterial, but the fin rot and bloody
patches certainly indicate bacterial activity. I read your later posts
also... The gold spots and dusty patches that you mention do sound like
Velvet (I have never had it in a tank but I have had White Spot once and I
do not want it again; all I know about Velvet is what I read online about
it). Bacteria are always present, and if a fish is weakened by a parasitic
invasion, the bacteria will use the opportunity to also invade. Most all
"pests" as such are opportunistic in this way. This is why the best defense
against such attacks is to do what you can to constantly keep the fishes
immune systems strong and keep the fish as healthy as possible. Plants
should only be purchased from tanks that do not have fish, and it sounds
like that was the case with yours, but perhaps they had been in contact with
infested fish or tanks at some point before you got them? I don't know, it's
just a thought... But once your tanks/fish have been healthy for a period
and nothing new has been added, there should be no Velvet or White Spot
parasites in your tank (or course there will always be bacteria). The only
way to be safe is to quarantine all new additions (fish and plants) for
longer than the parasites life cycle. Since I do not have a convenient way
to do that, my practice is to avoid introducing anything new into my tank,
no matter how much I'd like to. When I do have to for some reason, I'm
always worried about it. The one time when I did get White Spot (many years
ago) I had added two Plecostomus catfish. My tank is not planted anymore so
I don't have that to be concerned with. One thing you can do in the future
is to remove any sickly acting fish immediately to a hospital tank before
the bacteria can spread, and you can always expect a bacterial attack at
some point as the fish is stressed/weakened by parasites or other maladies.
The number of bacteria in the water has a direct relationship on whether the
fish can fight it off or not. Too many bacteria and they become overwhelmed.
It is also important to know and understand the life cycles of parasites and
to be able to identify them. A big part of my enjoyment of aquaria has been
in reading about fish diseases, parasites, anatomy, behavior and other
scientific and technical materials on web sites and it has also been handy
to know these things at times. I save web articles on my PC that I think may
be useful in the future, especially about diseases, in case I may encounter
any and have need to identify them and attempt to effect a cure. When you
think about the threats from bacteria and parasites, combined with keeping
fish in such small close-quartered environments as our tanks are, it is
almost asking for trouble, in some ways. One must be diligent and even then
things can happen.

Fedor



wrote in message
oups.com...
Thanks for the reply - i had not considered that it could all be
bacterial

I am going to remove the upside down catfish and treat elsewhere as it
is now the only sick fish left alive.
It now has a yellow dusting on its flanks as well as the spots - i am
at aloss really with so many different symptoms all at once.

By the way the zero nitrates is indeed a mistake, they are about
30ppm.

chris

Fedor,


Thanks for your replies - it is good to have someone elses thoughts
when you are unsure what is right or wrong.
i have posted this on yahoo groups but everyone there only seems
interested in arguing!

I am begining to form an idea of how it may all have gone wrong

The tank was overstocked, i never cleaned all the gravel, and i
regularly added cold water to get the catfish to spawn.
These things together would have had an effect on the fish even though
they all looked great, then i added some plants, some of which i know
were from a regular customer at the LFS who has a CO2 setup at home,
he brings in plants when he has too many and the guy at the fish shop
sells them (actually he gave me a load to keep me sweet because i
supply him with catfish) anyway, i think i remember him saying that
the guy had just brought the plants in recently - this would mean that
parasites may have still been ailve on them or in their water.

I think that the corydoras died of an infection called red pest,
possibly brought on the the attack of parasites, the others developed
parasite infestations later and their bacterial infections were as a
result of this.

The thing is now i need to get rid of the parasites which i believe to
be velvet and white spot at the same time. Do you know of a treatment
for both together?
I have read about copper which is used for ridding a tank of snails,
but i dont like the idea of it, it is a poison. And it would damage my
plants.
There is also methylene blue but it will have side effects too and i
don't know how effective it is.
Like you i subscribe to the idea of minimal intervention, letting
nature (such as it is in a fish tank!) look after itself, so i may
just keep on removing sick fishes, changing the water, cleaning the
gravel etc etc and hoping the fishes iminutiy in the main tank takes
care of it


If anyone does know a way of dealing with white spot and velvet at the
same time please share it with me


Thanks


chris

wrote in message
ups.com...

If anyone does know a way of dealing with white spot and velvet at the
same time please share it with me
==========================
Google tropical+fish+diseases. These parasites aren't going to go away on
their own. For white spot aka ick, I use QuickCure or AquraSol. I don't
remember my fish ever having velvet. I'm sure you will find much information
on the web for treating velvet.
--
RM....
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

RM

there are no fish in the trays in the LFS, they are small unheated
plastic trays on the floor (sounds terrible but it is actually a
really nice shop) if the cold water slowed the life cycle down enough
then maybe the parasites survived long enough there? i think it could
have been less than 24 hrs

I am treating the upside down catfish with interpet anti slime and
velvet - he has fewer spots than yesterday, he looks paler than his
healthy companion but otherwise he is acting fine - dare i say it but
he might be the only fish to have got ill and recovered

No need to worry about the loaches in the main tank as they are all
dead now
had them for five years - a little sad really

I have spent every spare minute for the last few weeks googling velvet
and ick, you may not apreciate it being in the US but most of the
content on the web originates there. which means that a lot of what i
am reading talks about US-only medication which i can't buy, but i am
learning quite a lot all the same. I emailed the federation of british
aquatic societies and they were extremely helpful, i hope they dont
mind me sharing.......

Here is his reply to my original post with my further questions and
his further answers

1. Occasional flicking is normal.

didn't know that - thanks




2. The cory possibly had "red blotch disease". Not sure of cause - I
reckon bacterial. Cory expert Ian Fuller treats this using Melafix
(made by API).

I had read about a bacterial infection called red pest,
possibly the same thing - i will buy some melafix asap




3. Bleeding heart tetras get a specfic viral infection that looks like
Lymphocystis (small whitish blobs)- no cure, and prob. triggered by
stress.

Didn't know that either, it would explain why my congo
tetras have been unaffected by the white spots and why it didn't
respond to white spot treatments - does it look exactly like white
spot?

See attached picture taken by myself.




4. Amoxycillin isnt much use on fish as it treats gram-positive
bacteria, whereas most major bacterial problems of ornamental fish are
gram-negative. Be aware that antibiotics sold for humans can be
different formats as those sold for use on fish. Some formats contain
additional chemicals that can be toxic to fish.

Wasn't sure about doing this, it was a bit of desparation



5. Sudden emergence of snails plus fast gill beats in fish suggests to
me low oxygen problems, which could be root cause of the latter
deaths.
I had attributed the increase in snails to the clown
loaches no longer eating them - could lack of oxygen be due to the
illnesses / medication in the water?

I guess the treatments may have upset the bacterial flora of the
aquarium, causing a proliferation of oxygen-consuming bacteria? But
low oxygen might reflect accumulating organic wastes in the gravel,
resulting in increasing "BOD" (biological oxygen demand) which
eventually reached a critical level. Hard to say.








The picture of bleeding heart tetra virus looked like a fluffy fungus
- not what mine had, i think it was ick. perhaps i just treated it too
late

Thanks for your help - i genuinely apreciate it


chris

wrote in message
ps.com...
RM

there are no fish in the trays in the LFS, they are small unheated
plastic trays on the floor (sounds terrible but it is actually a
really nice shop) if the cold water slowed the life cycle down enough
then maybe the parasites survived long enough there? i think it could
have been less than 24 hrs

I am treating the upside down catfish with interpet anti slime and
velvet - he has fewer spots than yesterday, he looks paler than his
healthy companion but otherwise he is acting fine - dare i say it but
he might be the only fish to have got ill and recovered

Well that's good news. :-) Make sure you keep his water pristine and well
oxygenated during treatment.

No need to worry about the loaches in the main tank as they are all
dead now
had them for five years - a little sad really

Oh no! :*( Next time you need to treat the plants before adding them to
your tank. Put them in some tank water and a very bright place, or use a
light over them. Keep them warm to hatch out any parasite cysts.... and add
the medication as you would if treating a fish with parasites. I too have
brought home "problems" with new plants in the past.

I have spent every spare minute for the last few weeks googling velvet
and ick, you may not apreciate it being in the US but most of the
content on the web originates there. which means that a lot of what i
am reading talks about US-only medication which i can't buy, but i am
learning quite a lot all the same. I emailed the federation of british
aquatic societies and they were extremely helpful, i hope they dont
mind me sharing.......

They are probably happy you share any information the give you if it helps
save fish lives. I think what you call "red blotch" is what we call
"contagious ulcers" a condition caused by bacteria that is almost impossible
to treat. It wiped out my entire pond back in the late 1990s. :*(


Here is his reply to my original post with my further questions and
his further answers

1. Occasional flicking is normal.

didn't know that - thanks

2. The cory possibly had "red blotch disease". Not sure of cause - I
reckon bacterial. Cory expert Ian Fuller treats this using Melafix
(made by API).

I had read about a bacterial infection called red pest,
possibly the same thing - i will buy some melafix asap




3. Bleeding heart tetras get a specfic viral infection that looks like
Lymphocystis (small whitish blobs)- no cure, and prob. triggered by
stress.

Didn't know that either, it would explain why my congo
tetras have been unaffected by the white spots and why it didn't
respond to white spot treatments - does it look exactly like white
spot?

See attached picture taken by myself.




4. Amoxycillin isnt much use on fish as it treats gram-positive
bacteria, whereas most major bacterial problems of ornamental fish are
gram-negative. Be aware that antibiotics sold for humans can be
different formats as those sold for use on fish. Some formats contain
additional chemicals that can be toxic to fish.

Wasn't sure about doing this, it was a bit of desparation



5. Sudden emergence of snails plus fast gill beats in fish suggests to
me low oxygen problems, which could be root cause of the latter
deaths.
I had attributed the increase in snails to the clown
loaches no longer eating them - could lack of oxygen be due to the
illnesses / medication in the water?

I guess the treatments may have upset the bacterial flora of the
aquarium, causing a proliferation of oxygen-consuming bacteria? But
low oxygen might reflect accumulating organic wastes in the gravel,
resulting in increasing "BOD" (biological oxygen demand) which
eventually reached a critical level. Hard to say.

The picture of bleeding heart tetra virus looked like a fluffy fungus
- not what mine had, i think it was ick. perhaps i just treated it too
late

Thanks for your help - i genuinely apreciate it


chris

--

RM....
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

I never had Velvet. I had White Spot and I used a medicine called "QuICK
Cure" to treat it, along with gradually raising the temperature to about
85F, but I had no live plants at the time and I think that medicine is bad
for plants. Having plants changes everything. Some use salt but that's also
bad for plants. In the case of plants I'm not sure what I would do. I'd be
tempted to remove the fish to another temporary hospital tank and treat them
there, and let enough time pass for the parasites to die off (lacking any
host) in the main tank (raise the temp as much as the plants will stand to
speed the process) and then put the fish back afterward. I don't know how
practical that would be, and I don't recall ever hearing of anyone doing it
that way (that I can remember) but it's what first comes to my mind at
present. I tend to do whatever seems logical when the need arises, and
knowing that the parasites will die off without a host, that would be my
thinking in such a case. I see in a later posting that 'Reel McKoi' wrote:
"I think what you call "red blotch" is what we call "contagious ulcers" a
condition caused by bacteria that is almost impossible to treat." - I would
fully agree with that assessment, and it sounds exactly like what I have
experienced in the past.
Healthy fish are to some degree resistant to White Spot (and I would
assume to Velvet also), but it is a known fact that adding cold water to a
tank can allow the parasites to gain advantage over the fishes resistance
whereas the fish might have been able to resist being infested otherwise. I
would never do it. More frequent water changes are needed in an overstocked
tank, and not cleaning the gravel and other parts of the environment will
lead to a dirty environment that harmful bacteria will thrive in. All of
these factors combine to lower the fishes resistance to disease, and since
bacteria are always present, the only defense the fish have is a strong
immune system and robust health. A clean tank and stable environment are
essential for healthy fish. Think of how in the wild they have a large body
of constantly circulating clean pristine water (with plenty of sunlight
which kills bacteria) with a low level of bacterial concentrations, and
plenty of dissolved oxygen; that is what you want to try to replicate in
your tanks. Thinking of sunlight killing bacteria, a U.V. sterilizer unit
would probably help a lot. I've never had one but it's been on my mind some
and it will kill both parasites and bacteria. The nitrifying bacteria are
mostly on surfaces and not in the water, so it won't affect them much. I
suspect that using a U.V. unit prevents a lot of problems and would provide
some peace of mind.

Fedor


wrote in message
ups.com...
Fedor,


Thanks for your replies - it is good to have someone elses thoughts
when you are unsure what is right or wrong.
i have posted this on yahoo groups but everyone there only seems
interested in arguing!

I am begining to form an idea of how it may all have gone wrong

The tank was overstocked, i never cleaned all the gravel, and i
regularly added cold water to get the catfish to spawn.
These things together would have had an effect on the fish even though
they all looked great, then i added some plants, some of which i know
were from a regular customer at the LFS who has a CO2 setup at home,
he brings in plants when he has too many and the guy at the fish shop
sells them (actually he gave me a load to keep me sweet because i
supply him with catfish) anyway, i think i remember him saying that
the guy had just brought the plants in recently - this would mean that
parasites may have still been ailve on them or in their water.

I think that the corydoras died of an infection called red pest,
possibly brought on the the attack of parasites, the others developed
parasite infestations later and their bacterial infections were as a
result of this.

The thing is now i need to get rid of the parasites which i believe to
be velvet and white spot at the same time. Do you know of a treatment
for both together?
I have read about copper which is used for ridding a tank of snails,
but i dont like the idea of it, it is a poison. And it would damage my
plants.
There is also methylene blue but it will have side effects too and i
don't know how effective it is.
Like you i subscribe to the idea of minimal intervention, letting
nature (such as it is in a fish tank!) look after itself, so i may
just keep on removing sick fishes, changing the water, cleaning the
gravel etc etc and hoping the fishes iminutiy in the main tank takes
care of it


If anyone does know a way of dealing with white spot and velvet at the
same time please share it with me


Thanks


chris