live food for africans?

I have a degree in Business Management, which makes me absolutely worthless
in this dialogue. I do, however, have Mbuna. I feed these a variety of
foods including algae wafers, plankton, blood worms, flakes etc. I've never
had any troubles and my fish are looking and acting VERY healthy.

--
Craig Brye
University of Phoenix Online

"Cichlidiot" wrote in message
...
Racf wrote:

I hear what your saying. I still must stick with what I said,
though.....In an algae only food to eat scenario, they would probably
out compete the other fish....I imagine that's what drove their special
qualities.....but they will eat what they can get regardless....As do
most critters...some foods are preferred over others.... I do not
believe its a fact that a Mbuna cannot digest anything but algae....I am
not even aware of another herbivore that is so limited, but I am aware
of many carnivores that would do poorly eating grass and brush.
Breaking down fats is something even us humans have a bit of trouble
with....but proteins and carbs.....I do not think so.

And where is your biology degree? (And before you ask the same of me, mine
is on the wall behind me right now). You obviously have never taken a
physiology or morphology course. Otherwise you'd know about things like
digestive enzymes and intestinal tracts that affect what a creature is
able to eat. Here's a very simple example for you: lactose intolerance in
humans. This is primarily due to the lack of the digestive enzyme lactase
(although in some it is actually a true allergy to lactose or a reaction
to other components in cow-derived dairy products). This lack of lactase
causes intestinal discomfort, gas and bloating because the lactose cannot
be digested.

If a creature does not have the digestive enzymes to break down a complex
structure (which proteins are BTW) into its more simple components (such
as simple sugars or amino acids), then it will have issues eating
something which contains a high quantity of that complex structure.
Everything I've read about mbuna suggests that they do not have the
capacity (ie the digestive enzymes and so on) to live on a diet consisting
of mostly carnivorous foods without some serious digestive side-effects,
such as bloat. The occasional intake may be tolerated, but not a constant
diet of such food.

Oh, and for not believing other herbivores are so limited, there are
other fish with similar algae eating habits. Several scientific studies
are underway with just the primary goal of gaining even more insight into
the physiology of the digestive tracts of fish that are herbivores. For
example, read this faculty page for a professor at Fullerton:

http://stromboli.fullerton.edu/mhorn.html

It is of course brief, but shows that there are other fish that are
similarly algae eating herbivores. In the case of that professor, his
research focuses on several marine herbivores. That is also just one
example that popped up on a Google search for research in this field.

Now, in the future, if you wish to make such claims, please do not base it
on "personal belief". Provide some sound scientific research to back it
up. Right now, most of the scientific knowledge indicate that algae
eating mbuna should be fed an herbivorous diet. Perhaps you have done an
experiment or two comparing the effects of a carnivorous diet vs a
herbivorous diet on these mbuna fishes that you'd care to share?

Don't change a thing then! In my experience, if it ain't broke, don't fix
it!

I've had much the same experience too btw.. I feed them something different
everyday and make sure the temperatures are stable...
"Craig Brye" wrote in message
...
I have a degree in Business Management, which makes me absolutely
worthless
in this dialogue. I do, however, have Mbuna. I feed these a variety of
foods including algae wafers, plankton, blood worms, flakes etc. I've
never
had any troubles and my fish are looking and acting VERY healthy.

--
Craig Brye
University of Phoenix Online

"Cichlidiot" wrote in message
...
Racf wrote:

I hear what your saying. I still must stick with what I said,
though.....In an algae only food to eat scenario, they would probably
out compete the other fish....I imagine that's what drove their
special
qualities.....but they will eat what they can get regardless....As do
most critters...some foods are preferred over others.... I do not
believe its a fact that a Mbuna cannot digest anything but algae....I
am
not even aware of another herbivore that is so limited, but I am aware
of many carnivores that would do poorly eating grass and brush.
Breaking down fats is something even us humans have a bit of trouble
with....but proteins and carbs.....I do not think so.

And where is your biology degree? (And before you ask the same of me,
mine
is on the wall behind me right now). You obviously have never taken a
physiology or morphology course. Otherwise you'd know about things like
digestive enzymes and intestinal tracts that affect what a creature is
able to eat. Here's a very simple example for you: lactose intolerance
in
humans. This is primarily due to the lack of the digestive enzyme
lactase
(although in some it is actually a true allergy to lactose or a reaction
to other components in cow-derived dairy products). This lack of lactase
causes intestinal discomfort, gas and bloating because the lactose
cannot
be digested.

If a creature does not have the digestive enzymes to break down a
complex
structure (which proteins are BTW) into its more simple components (such
as simple sugars or amino acids), then it will have issues eating
something which contains a high quantity of that complex structure.
Everything I've read about mbuna suggests that they do not have the
capacity (ie the digestive enzymes and so on) to live on a diet
consisting
of mostly carnivorous foods without some serious digestive side-effects,
such as bloat. The occasional intake may be tolerated, but not a
constant
diet of such food.

Oh, and for not believing other herbivores are so limited, there are
other fish with similar algae eating habits. Several scientific studies
are underway with just the primary goal of gaining even more insight
into
the physiology of the digestive tracts of fish that are herbivores. For
example, read this faculty page for a professor at Fullerton:

http://stromboli.fullerton.edu/mhorn.html

It is of course brief, but shows that there are other fish that are
similarly algae eating herbivores. In the case of that professor, his
research focuses on several marine herbivores. That is also just one
example that popped up on a Google search for research in this field.

Now, in the future, if you wish to make such claims, please do not base
it
on "personal belief". Provide some sound scientific research to back it
up. Right now, most of the scientific knowledge indicate that algae
eating mbuna should be fed an herbivorous diet. Perhaps you have done an
experiment or two comparing the effects of a carnivorous diet vs a
herbivorous diet on these mbuna fishes that you'd care to share?

when you post a question like the one you posted the so called experts
come crawling out of the cracks to give advice.

i have been keeping fish for over 30 years and have had a small animal
practice for 20 years. i do know a little about fish and i will tell
you that giving your fish a live treat of brine shrimp or chopped worms
(or whatever) is O.K. i treat my 240 gallon malawi tank about once
every other week with live brine shrimp. in the wild they eat other
things besides algae. i have been to africa twice and actually watched
the fish in their natural habitat.

take everything you read here with a grain of salt.......

Randy PhxVet wrote:
i have been keeping fish for over 30 years and have had a small animal
practice for 20 years. i do know a little about fish and i will tell
you that giving your fish a live treat of brine shrimp or chopped worms
(or whatever) is O.K. i treat my 240 gallon malawi tank about once
every other week with live brine shrimp. in the wild they eat other
things besides algae. i have been to africa twice and actually watched
the fish in their natural habitat.

I feel the need to clarify as I feel you're directing this post to me. If
you re-read my posts, you will note that I often said that occasional
ingestion of insects or the like should not cause issue as in the wild
these are occasionally eaten along with the algae. My posts were in
response to another who seemed to be advocating a high protein/fat diet
instead of a primarily herbivorous diet, which I do not feel would be in
the best interest of the fish. I am an advocate of trying to replicate the
feeding habits and diet that the fish would have in the wild. In the case
of algae eaters, this would mean a herbivorous diet with the occasional
"treat" of things like brine shrimp or daphnia would most replicate their
natural diet. I'd also say treats of algae covered rocks would be welcome
as then they could practice their feeding habits as well. Since the pet
food industry makes it easy to replicate herbivorous diets with various
spirulina products and so on, I don't see any reason not to do it (as
opposed to say a mollusc eating fish, where it might be difficult to find
sufficient snails/molluscs to feed without breaking the bank, so one has
to settle for a flake food substitute not really based on a mollusc
eater's wild diet).

"Cichlidiot" wrote in message
...
Randy PhxVet wrote:
i have been keeping fish for over 30 years and have had a small
animal
practice for 20 years. i do know a little about fish and i will
tell
you that giving your fish a live treat of brine shrimp or chopped
worms
(or whatever) is O.K. i treat my 240 gallon malawi tank about once
every other week with live brine shrimp. in the wild they eat other
things besides algae. i have been to africa twice and actually
watched
the fish in their natural habitat.

I feel the need to clarify as I feel you're directing this post to me.
If
you re-read my posts, you will note that I often said that occasional
ingestion of insects or the like should not cause issue as in the wild
these are occasionally eaten along with the algae. My posts were in
response to another who seemed to be advocating a high protein/fat
diet
instead of a primarily herbivorous diet, which I do not feel would be
in
the best interest of the fish. I am an advocate of trying to replicate
the
feeding habits and diet that the fish would have in the wild. In the
case
of algae eaters, this would mean a herbivorous diet with the
occasional
"treat" of things like brine shrimp or daphnia would most replicate
their
natural diet. I'd also say treats of algae covered rocks would be
welcome
as then they could practice their feeding habits as well. Since the
pet
food industry makes it easy to replicate herbivorous diets with
various
spirulina products and so on, I don't see any reason not to do it (as
opposed to say a mollusc eating fish, where it might be difficult to
find
sufficient snails/molluscs to feed without breaking the bank, so one
has
to settle for a flake food substitute not really based on a mollusc
eater's wild diet).

I do not recall anyone advocating a high protein/fat diet at all. I do
recall folks advocating a herbivore only diet, which is probably not at
all a factual diet in the wild. Seems like you were a cheerleader for
the latter.

Glad to see you see the light now...

Racf wrote:

I do not recall anyone advocating a high protein/fat diet at all. I do
recall folks advocating a herbivore only diet, which is probably not at
all a factual diet in the wild. Seems like you were a cheerleader for
the latter.

Glad to see you see the light now...

Umm... what world were you reading my posts in? Apparently not the same
one that I wrote it in. For that matter, do we forget our own words?
Here's a refresher course. The following is the line from your post that
motivated me to reply:

Racf wrote:
If all there was to eat was buffalo chips, I imagine
anyone that liked them woud do quite well

This prompted me to reply because such a diet is carnivorous and high in
fat/protein. While I recognize you were not being literal about feeding
fish buffalo chips, it still seemed to say that a carnivorous diet was
fine and dandy for carnivore. That is why I had quite substantial replies
about the biology of the fish, but never did I say it had to be algae and
nothing else. In case you need a refresher, here's some snippets from my
posts. From my first post:

Cichlidiot wrote:
The occasional invertebrate inadvertantly caught with the algae will
not upset the intestinal tract to a great deal, but a primarily meat
diet will.

And from my second post:

Cichlidiot wrote:
Everything I've read about mbuna suggests that they do not have the
capacity (ie the digestive enzymes and so on) to live on a diet
consisting of mostly carnivorous foods without some serious digestive
side-effects, such as bloat. The occasional intake may be tolerated,
but not a constant diet of such food.

So as you can see from those snippets, both of my posts on this thread
said it was fine for the OCCASIONAL introduction of non-herbivorous foods.
I was never a "cheerleader" for only feeding them algae as you seem to
think. I have always "seen the light" when it comes to the fact that they
will intake such foods on occasion in the wild. My point was while it is
fine to feed such foods occasionally, the bulk of the diet should be
herbivorous since this replicates their natural diet. My motivation was to
be a counterbalance to your posts which seemed to advocate a carnivorous
diet for a fish is an herbivore.

Next time get your facts straight before you post such a gloating post as
this one.

"Cichlidiot" wrote in message
...
Racf wrote:

I do not recall anyone advocating a high protein/fat diet at all. I
do
recall folks advocating a herbivore only diet, which is probably not
at
all a factual diet in the wild. Seems like you were a cheerleader
for
the latter.

Glad to see you see the light now...

Umm... what world were you reading my posts in? Apparently not the
same
one that I wrote it in. For that matter, do we forget our own words?
Here's a refresher course. The following is the line from your post
that
motivated me to reply:

Racf wrote:
If all there was to eat was buffalo chips, I imagine
anyone that liked them woud do quite well

This prompted me to reply because such a diet is carnivorous and high
in
fat/protein. While I recognize you were not being literal about
feeding
fish buffalo chips, it still seemed to say that a carnivorous diet was
fine and dandy for carnivore. That is why I had quite substantial
replies
about the biology of the fish, but never did I say it had to be algae
and
nothing else. In case you need a refresher, here's some snippets from
my
posts. From my first post:

Cichlidiot wrote:
The occasional invertebrate inadvertantly caught with the algae will
not upset the intestinal tract to a great deal, but a primarily meat
diet will.

And from my second post:

Cichlidiot wrote:
Everything I've read about mbuna suggests that they do not have the
capacity (ie the digestive enzymes and so on) to live on a diet
consisting of mostly carnivorous foods without some serious
digestive
side-effects, such as bloat. The occasional intake may be tolerated,
but not a constant diet of such food.

So as you can see from those snippets, both of my posts on this thread
said it was fine for the OCCASIONAL introduction of non-herbivorous
foods.
I was never a "cheerleader" for only feeding them algae as you seem to
think. I have always "seen the light" when it comes to the fact that
they
will intake such foods on occasion in the wild. My point was while it
is
fine to feed such foods occasionally, the bulk of the diet should be
herbivorous since this replicates their natural diet. My motivation
was to
be a counterbalance to your posts which seemed to advocate a
carnivorous
diet for a fish is an herbivore.

Next time get your facts straight before you post such a gloating post
as
this one.

Actually, the buffalo chips reference was for people....

I believe there have been quite a number of posts that balance the
"herbivore" only myth that has been so pervasive for so long. Here is
my original response on this subject in case you forgot:

"I imagine the African's are not that much difference than their North
and South American cousins. They pretty much eat whatever they can
get.....with last choice going to Algae. I would only suggest a varied
diet, and it looks like that's what you are doing."

Save your "Bloat" for another day..

Lots of the Mbuna cichlids in Lake Malawi is the most Mbuna algae eater. Therefore, they should be fed on algae or other plants food. However, some Mbuna do not eat algae and many other Malawi mbuna have totally different than the demand for food.