Water problems?

I had posted about my big oranda and how he had been either sitting on the
bottom, or hovering up at the top of the tank. I took him out and put him
in a 6 gallon tank for 5 days, changing the water every day, all water
treated with CopperSafe. He was just fine, and got put back in the tank.
After a week of him being active and back to normal, he's started doing it
again. Now one of my others is acting a bit "tired" as well.

I'm starting to think that maybe I need to do a total water change? I did
over 50% last week and will again today.

4 full sized fish in a 40 gallon tank (two babies in a fry netting at the
top of the tank, only about 1/2 in long), Emperor filter, sand substrate, 6
plastic and ceramic based 'plants'.

Any other suggestions, or should I just plan for a total cleanout next
weekend?

Tahnk,

Devin

Checked PH, Ammonia and Nitrates and all are coming back with excellent
readings.

-Devin

In article k.net,
says...
Checked PH, Ammonia and Nitrates and all are coming back with excellent
readings.

-Devin



What does that mean? You should have ammonia = 0, nitrites =0, and
nitrates something 40ppm. Anything else is not excellent.

What you describe sounds like an uncycled tank, and you're
not doing water changes frequently enough to keep the
water ammonia and/or nitrites tolerably low.
Start doing daily tests for ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates,
and do daily partial water changes as required.
See http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-cycling.html
for details.
G

Sorry that I wasn't clear. I am reading 0 on ammonia, 0 on nitrates and
acceptable on PH.

I thought 20% changes once a week were more than enough on a well
established and cycled tank?

-Devin


"Gunther" wrote in message
t...
In article k.net,
says...
Checked PH, Ammonia and Nitrates and all are coming back with excellent
readings.

-Devin



What does that mean? You should have ammonia = 0, nitrites =0, and
nitrates something 40ppm. Anything else is not excellent.

What you describe sounds like an uncycled tank, and you're
not doing water changes frequently enough to keep the
water ammonia and/or nitrites tolerably low.
Start doing daily tests for ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates,
and do daily partial water changes as required.
See http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-cycling.html
for details.
G

In article k.net,
says...
Sorry that I wasn't clear. I am reading 0 on ammonia, 0 on nitrates and
acceptable on PH.


What you described was a sick fish that got better when
you gave it provably good water. What more proof do you
need that you have a water quality issue?

And seeing a reading of zero for nitrAtes is not normal unless
you just finished a 100% water change. You probably had a
bio-filter crash. (Or maybe you have old test kits that
are giving false results?)

I thought 20% changes once a week were more than enough on a well
established and cycled tank?

For a well established and cycled tank, you change whatever it
takes to keep nitrates to an acceptable level. How much and
how often depends on a lot of factors -- stocking levels,
live plants or not, etc. The point is not sticking to a rote
formula: it's to keep the water clean so the fish stay healthy.

I strongly suspect that if you start doing 25-50% PWCs daily
for a couple of weeks, your fish will improve.
Ok, _now_ will you go read http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-cycling.html?

there is something wrong with something in the tank. remove all the "stuff" and do a
100% water change. what is the temp? what kind of aeration do you have in the tank?

wash that sand out really well. dont put the "stuff" back into the tank, it is most
likely the source of the problem. sometimes it takes months to years for material to
start breaking down. all the water parameters can look wonderful, but the CO2 level
is elevated and something toxic is going on in the tanks. only thing to do is a
strip down. Ingrid

"Devin" wrote:

I had posted about my big oranda and how he had been either sitting on the
bottom, or hovering up at the top of the tank. I took him out and put him
in a 6 gallon tank for 5 days, changing the water every day, all water
treated with CopperSafe. He was just fine, and got put back in the tank.
After a week of him being active and back to normal, he's started doing it
again. Now one of my others is acting a bit "tired" as well.

I'm starting to think that maybe I need to do a total water change? I did
over 50% last week and will again today.

4 full sized fish in a 40 gallon tank (two babies in a fry netting at the
top of the tank, only about 1/2 in long), Emperor filter, sand substrate, 6
plastic and ceramic based 'plants'.

Any other suggestions, or should I just plan for a total cleanout next
weekend?

Tahnk,

Devin




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Water temp runs 78 - 80 degrees, aeration is provided by a 24" bubble bar
with a Tetra Deep Water 18 pump and the filter, which is an Emperor 280.

I'll do the total clean out, it's what I was leaning towards anyway. Is
there a way to check CO2? I have the Doc Wellfish kit, and it tests for
almost everything but that (and I know the test kit works properly as I have
a 6 gallon hospital tank and it does show Nitrates and Ammonia readings on
that water).

What would cause this to happen so soon after setting it up? This tank
completed its cycle only about 6 months ago.

-Devin

p.s. Thanks for the suggestion several months back of putting polyester fill
in the extra media cartridge of the Emperor. I've never had such clear
water!



wrote in message
...
there is something wrong with something in the tank. remove all the
"stuff" and do a
100% water change. what is the temp? what kind of aeration do you have
in the tank?

wash that sand out really well. dont put the "stuff" back into the tank,
it is most
likely the source of the problem. sometimes it takes months to years for
material to
start breaking down. all the water parameters can look wonderful, but the
CO2 level
is elevated and something toxic is going on in the tanks. only thing to
do is a
strip down. Ingrid

"Devin" wrote:

I had posted about my big oranda and how he had been either sitting on
the
bottom, or hovering up at the top of the tank. I took him out and put
him
in a 6 gallon tank for 5 days, changing the water every day, all water
treated with CopperSafe. He was just fine, and got put back in the tank.
After a week of him being active and back to normal, he's started doing
it
again. Now one of my others is acting a bit "tired" as well.

I'm starting to think that maybe I need to do a total water change? I
did
over 50% last week and will again today.

4 full sized fish in a 40 gallon tank (two babies in a fry netting at the
top of the tank, only about 1/2 in long), Emperor filter, sand substrate,
6
plastic and ceramic based 'plants'.

Any other suggestions, or should I just plan for a total cleanout next
weekend?

Tahnk,

Devin




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Hi Devin,
Sounds like you may have an AP Doc Wellfish Master FW test kit - Is that
right?
I do, and mine measures ammonia, nitrIte, Hi & Low range pH, kH & gH - but
for some annoying reason does not include a nitrAte test, and IME the
nitrAte kit is not to be found in any LFS, so unless you ordered a nitrAte
test kit online you probably don't have one. Is it possible that everywhere
in this thread that you discuss nitrAte you really mean nitrIte?

I get my AP nitrAte liquid test kit from
http://www.thatpetplace.com/intro/mainf.html
search from there under: fish-testing equipment-Aquarium Pharm.-nitrAte

Toxic stuff (dissolved organic compounds?) and other bad juju build up in
gravel or sand substrate over time unless (or even if?) regularly cleaned.
Stirring the substrate with big cleaning releases toxins that can make fish
really sick or dead. IMO the fish should be temporarily removed during the
big substrate cleaning, at least until water is clear again. These kind of
toxins (ask others about DOCs & POCs?) are not measurable with simple test
kits. This is why many here have come to recommend no substrate, just glass
bottom tank for GF. Not as pretty but avoids any hidden buildup.

To determine CO2 with your Dr. Wellfish test kit, measure pH & kH and see
Chuck Gadd's site
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm

I add CO2 with Nutrafin DIY reactor to maintain a lower pH without
chemicals.
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...=6&pCatId=8981
Without it tank pH is around 8.2 - 8.4, with it, 7.6
By Chucks chart the CO2 "measures" only ~3.5 ppm, but it's enough to
measurably lower the pH.
BTW - If you go the Nutrafin CO2 reactor route ask about a DIY recipe, don't
buy the pricey refills
All it needs is hot water, sugar, yeast & baking soda
HTH
~ MattO

"Devin" wrote in message
ink.net...
Water temp runs 78 - 80 degrees, aeration is provided by a 24" bubble bar
with a Tetra Deep Water 18 pump and the filter, which is an Emperor 280.

I'll do the total clean out, it's what I was leaning towards anyway. Is
there a way to check CO2? I have the Doc Wellfish kit, and it tests for
almost everything but that (and I know the test kit works properly as I
have
a 6 gallon hospital tank and it does show Nitrates and Ammonia readings on
that water).

What would cause this to happen so soon after setting it up? This tank
completed its cycle only about 6 months ago.

-Devin

p.s. Thanks for the suggestion several months back of putting polyester
fill
in the extra media cartridge of the Emperor. I've never had such clear
water!



wrote in message
...
there is something wrong with something in the tank. remove all the
"stuff" and do a
100% water change. what is the temp? what kind of aeration do you have
in the tank?

wash that sand out really well. dont put the "stuff" back into the
tank,
it is most
likely the source of the problem. sometimes it takes months to years
for
material to
start breaking down. all the water parameters can look wonderful, but
the
CO2 level
is elevated and something toxic is going on in the tanks. only thing to
do is a
strip down. Ingrid

"Devin" wrote:

I had posted about my big oranda and how he had been either sitting on
the
bottom, or hovering up at the top of the tank. I took him out and put
him
in a 6 gallon tank for 5 days, changing the water every day, all water
treated with CopperSafe. He was just fine, and got put back in the
tank.
After a week of him being active and back to normal, he's started doing
it
again. Now one of my others is acting a bit "tired" as well.

I'm starting to think that maybe I need to do a total water change? I
did
over 50% last week and will again today.

4 full sized fish in a 40 gallon tank (two babies in a fry netting at
the
top of the tank, only about 1/2 in long), Emperor filter, sand
substrate,
6
plastic and ceramic based 'plants'.

Any other suggestions, or should I just plan for a total cleanout next
weekend?

Tahnk,

Devin




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Devin,
In my previous message I wandered off my point possible nitrIte vs.
nitrAte confusion and toxic buildup in established substrate. To follow up:

In an established tank, gunk will collect in the substrate. NitrAte in the
water will rise measurably, to levels well over recommended limit of 20ppm
and eventually becoming toxic. And in this case water changes will not make
much of a difference in nitrAte levels until root source in substrate is
removed.

So -

If you are really measuring nitrAtes as you say, and they are zero, your
tank is probably not cycled. In that case, as Gunther said you need to
monitor ammonia & nitrIte & do water changes daily until both are zero and
the tank is cycled - about 8 weeks - and follow the link Gunther sent for
more on that.

If you are actually measuring nitrItes (which I suspect is the case) and
they are zero, and ammonia is zero, unless you are doing daily water changes
your tank is probably cycled. But if you are measuring zero nitrItes and
your tank is well established, you probably have high nitrAtes, which could
be toxing your fish. Nevermind the immeasurable DOCs & POCs, high nitrAtes
are easy to see with the right test kit. In that case get a nitrAte test kit
ASAP, and as Gunther advised, do water changes based on that reading to keep
nitrAte below 20 ppm. If you find the nitrAte level is not reduced by 50% a
few hours after a 50% water change, then your substrate is probably fouled.
In that case you can worry about POCs/DOCs.

In any case do frequent water changes until you sort it all out - it never
hurts.
HTH
Till recently I've always had gravel. Tried plants, hi-watt CF lighting,
CO2, the works- finally gave up - Have thought about sand but after recent
GF death went directly to glass bottom. Since then tank is pristine, 'cept
for the diatoms (brown algae).
~ MattO


"MattO" wrote in message
news:kc7cb.564964$uu5.93088@sccrnsc04...
Hi Devin,
Sounds like you may have an AP Doc Wellfish Master FW test kit - Is that
right?
I do, and mine measures ammonia, nitrIte, Hi & Low range pH, kH & gH - but
for some annoying reason does not include a nitrAte test, and IME the
nitrAte kit is not to be found in any LFS, so unless you ordered a nitrAte
test kit online you probably don't have one. Is it possible that
everywhere
in this thread that you discuss nitrAte you really mean nitrIte?

I get my AP nitrAte liquid test kit from
http://www.thatpetplace.com/intro/mainf.html
search from there under: fish-testing equipment-Aquarium Pharm.-nitrAte

Toxic stuff (dissolved organic compounds?) and other bad juju build up in
gravel or sand substrate over time unless (or even if?) regularly cleaned.
Stirring the substrate with big cleaning releases toxins that can make
fish
really sick or dead. IMO the fish should be temporarily removed during the
big substrate cleaning, at least until water is clear again. These kind of
toxins (ask others about DOCs & POCs?) are not measurable with simple test
kits. This is why many here have come to recommend no substrate, just
glass
bottom tank for GF. Not as pretty but avoids any hidden buildup.

To determine CO2 with your Dr. Wellfish test kit, measure pH & kH and see
Chuck Gadd's site
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm

I add CO2 with Nutrafin DIY reactor to maintain a lower pH without
chemicals.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...=6&pCatId=8981
Without it tank pH is around 8.2 - 8.4, with it, 7.6
By Chucks chart the CO2 "measures" only ~3.5 ppm, but it's enough to
measurably lower the pH.
BTW - If you go the Nutrafin CO2 reactor route ask about a DIY recipe,
don't
buy the pricey refills
All it needs is hot water, sugar, yeast & baking soda
HTH
~ MattO

"Devin" wrote in message
ink.net...
Water temp runs 78 - 80 degrees, aeration is provided by a 24" bubble
bar
with a Tetra Deep Water 18 pump and the filter, which is an Emperor 280.

I'll do the total clean out, it's what I was leaning towards anyway. Is
there a way to check CO2? I have the Doc Wellfish kit, and it tests for
almost everything but that (and I know the test kit works properly as I
have
a 6 gallon hospital tank and it does show Nitrates and Ammonia readings
on
that water).

What would cause this to happen so soon after setting it up? This tank
completed its cycle only about 6 months ago.

-Devin

p.s. Thanks for the suggestion several months back of putting polyester
fill
in the extra media cartridge of the Emperor. I've never had such clear
water!



wrote in message
...
there is something wrong with something in the tank. remove all the
"stuff" and do a
100% water change. what is the temp? what kind of aeration do you
have
in the tank?

wash that sand out really well. dont put the "stuff" back into the
tank,
it is most
likely the source of the problem. sometimes it takes months to years
for
material to
start breaking down. all the water parameters can look wonderful, but
the
CO2 level
is elevated and something toxic is going on in the tanks. only thing
to
do is a
strip down. Ingrid

"Devin" wrote:

I had posted about my big oranda and how he had been either sitting
on
the
bottom, or hovering up at the top of the tank. I took him out and
put
him
in a 6 gallon tank for 5 days, changing the water every day, all
water
treated with CopperSafe. He was just fine, and got put back in the
tank.
After a week of him being active and back to normal, he's started
doing
it
again. Now one of my others is acting a bit "tired" as well.

I'm starting to think that maybe I need to do a total water change?
I
did
over 50% last week and will again today.

4 full sized fish in a 40 gallon tank (two babies in a fry netting at
the
top of the tank, only about 1/2 in long), Emperor filter, sand
substrate,
6
plastic and ceramic based 'plants'.

Any other suggestions, or should I just plan for a total cleanout
next
weekend?

Tahnk,

Devin




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Matt,

Well, it all comes down to the letters A and I, I guess. Yes, I'm checking
NitrItes, not NitrAtes. I'll bet those are up pretty high. I'll do the
total clean-out this weekend and be sure to get a NitrAte test.

Thanks for the help, from everyone,

Devin
"MattO" wrote in message
et...
Devin,
In my previous message I wandered off my point possible nitrIte vs.
nitrAte confusion and toxic buildup in established substrate. To follow
up:

In an established tank, gunk will collect in the substrate. NitrAte in the
water will rise measurably, to levels well over recommended limit of 20ppm
and eventually becoming toxic. And in this case water changes will not
make
much of a difference in nitrAte levels until root source in substrate is
removed.

So -

If you are really measuring nitrAtes as you say, and they are zero, your
tank is probably not cycled. In that case, as Gunther said you need to
monitor ammonia & nitrIte & do water changes daily until both are zero and
the tank is cycled - about 8 weeks - and follow the link Gunther sent for
more on that.

If you are actually measuring nitrItes (which I suspect is the case) and
they are zero, and ammonia is zero, unless you are doing daily water
changes
your tank is probably cycled. But if you are measuring zero nitrItes and
your tank is well established, you probably have high nitrAtes, which
could
be toxing your fish. Nevermind the immeasurable DOCs & POCs, high nitrAtes
are easy to see with the right test kit. In that case get a nitrAte test
kit
ASAP, and as Gunther advised, do water changes based on that reading to
keep
nitrAte below 20 ppm. If you find the nitrAte level is not reduced by 50%
a
few hours after a 50% water change, then your substrate is probably
fouled.
In that case you can worry about POCs/DOCs.

In any case do frequent water changes until you sort it all out - it never
hurts.
HTH
Till recently I've always had gravel. Tried plants, hi-watt CF lighting,
CO2, the works- finally gave up - Have thought about sand but after recent
GF death went directly to glass bottom. Since then tank is pristine, 'cept
for the diatoms (brown algae).
~ MattO


"MattO" wrote in message
news:kc7cb.564964$uu5.93088@sccrnsc04...
Hi Devin,
Sounds like you may have an AP Doc Wellfish Master FW test kit - Is that
right?
I do, and mine measures ammonia, nitrIte, Hi & Low range pH, kH & gH -
but
for some annoying reason does not include a nitrAte test, and IME the
nitrAte kit is not to be found in any LFS, so unless you ordered a
nitrAte
test kit online you probably don't have one. Is it possible that
everywhere
in this thread that you discuss nitrAte you really mean nitrIte?

I get my AP nitrAte liquid test kit from
http://www.thatpetplace.com/intro/mainf.html
search from there under: fish-testing equipment-Aquarium
Pharm.-nitrAte

Toxic stuff (dissolved organic compounds?) and other bad juju build up
in
gravel or sand substrate over time unless (or even if?) regularly
cleaned.
Stirring the substrate with big cleaning releases toxins that can make
fish
really sick or dead. IMO the fish should be temporarily removed during
the
big substrate cleaning, at least until water is clear again. These kind
of
toxins (ask others about DOCs & POCs?) are not measurable with simple
test
kits. This is why many here have come to recommend no substrate, just
glass
bottom tank for GF. Not as pretty but avoids any hidden buildup.

To determine CO2 with your Dr. Wellfish test kit, measure pH & kH and
see
Chuck Gadd's site
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm

I add CO2 with Nutrafin DIY reactor to maintain a lower pH without
chemicals.


http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...=6&pCatId=8981
Without it tank pH is around 8.2 - 8.4, with it, 7.6
By Chucks chart the CO2 "measures" only ~3.5 ppm, but it's enough to
measurably lower the pH.
BTW - If you go the Nutrafin CO2 reactor route ask about a DIY recipe,
don't
buy the pricey refills
All it needs is hot water, sugar, yeast & baking soda
HTH
~ MattO

"Devin" wrote in message
ink.net...
Water temp runs 78 - 80 degrees, aeration is provided by a 24" bubble
bar
with a Tetra Deep Water 18 pump and the filter, which is an Emperor
280.

I'll do the total clean out, it's what I was leaning towards anyway.
Is
there a way to check CO2? I have the Doc Wellfish kit, and it tests
for
almost everything but that (and I know the test kit works properly as
I
have
a 6 gallon hospital tank and it does show Nitrates and Ammonia
readings
on
that water).

What would cause this to happen so soon after setting it up? This
tank
completed its cycle only about 6 months ago.

-Devin

p.s. Thanks for the suggestion several months back of putting
polyester
fill
in the extra media cartridge of the Emperor. I've never had such
clear
water!



wrote in message
...
there is something wrong with something in the tank. remove all the
"stuff" and do a
100% water change. what is the temp? what kind of aeration do you
have
in the tank?

wash that sand out really well. dont put the "stuff" back into the
tank,
it is most
likely the source of the problem. sometimes it takes months to
years
for
material to
start breaking down. all the water parameters can look wonderful,
but
the
CO2 level
is elevated and something toxic is going on in the tanks. only
thing
to
do is a
strip down. Ingrid

"Devin" wrote:

I had posted about my big oranda and how he had been either sitting
on
the
bottom, or hovering up at the top of the tank. I took him out and
put
him
in a 6 gallon tank for 5 days, changing the water every day, all
water
treated with CopperSafe. He was just fine, and got put back in the
tank.
After a week of him being active and back to normal, he's started
doing
it
again. Now one of my others is acting a bit "tired" as well.

I'm starting to think that maybe I need to do a total water change?
I
did
over 50% last week and will again today.

4 full sized fish in a 40 gallon tank (two babies in a fry netting
at
the
top of the tank, only about 1/2 in long), Emperor filter, sand
substrate,
6
plastic and ceramic based 'plants'.

Any other suggestions, or should I just plan for a total cleanout
next
weekend?

Tahnk,

Devin




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.