Covering Pond for Winter

I believe the frostline in Chicago is 36" meaning that the ground
freezes up to 36 below ground. In zone 7 I could see the ground
staying 55 degrees, but not here.

"RichToyBox" wrote in message news:vLqAc.47756$Hg2.30050@attbi_s04...
You may be surprised at the temperature of the pond from 500 watt heater.
First if the pond is protected from evaporation and allowed some solar heat,
it will supply heat to the soil, until it drops to about 55 degrees, and
then it starts being heated by the natural ground temperature, which is a
fairly constant 55 degrees. So the heater should be raising the temperature
from the 55 degree level, and all of your heat losses should be through the
cover.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html
"MC" wrote in message
om...
The price range seems to run the gambit- 500W from $40 to $500+.

As I understand it, roughly each Watt will raise 1 gallon of water 10
degrees. So if my cover keeps my 500 gallon pond at a minimum of 40
degrees, a 500W heater will raise it to 50 degrees.


wrote in message
...
p. 361 of aquatic ecosystems catalog, $44 and extra 30 for the
controller. but they
got titanium that are cheaper. mine has a separate temperature probe and
the heater
is covered to prevent it from getting hit or melting liner down. people
in warmer
zones dont understand that our ponds drop below 50o (when koi's immune
system goes
down and feeding stops) sometime mid october in zone 5 and doesnt rise
over 50o until
mid april. that is 6 months of no immunity and 6 months of no food. it
is VERY VERY
hard on koi. you can always order some kind of pool from aquatic
ecosystem, or,
build a stud wall pond in the basement and line that with permalon.
Ingrid

(MC) wrote:
What kind of heater are you using? I've heard of people using trough
heaters and there seems to be several kinds of pond heaters. I only
have 500 gallons in Chicago.

It is early, but my first year I lost all my Koi (used a bubbler to
keep hole open). Last winter, I brought them inside. They are now kind
of big to bring inside. I am trying to plan ahead. If I need to bring
them inside this winter, I need to buy a kiddie pool and you can't
find them in the winter in Chicago.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

The frost line is outside where the soil is exposed. Crawl spaces under
houses don't freeze. I suspect that if the pond is kept covered, the soil
under the pond would not cool significantly below the 55 degrees. The soil
around the sides would develop frost, but the pond would be heating the
soil. If the cover extends a couple of feet from the pond edge, then the
heat transfer would be slow.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html
"MC" wrote in message
om...
I believe the frostline in Chicago is 36" meaning that the ground
freezes up to 36 below ground. In zone 7 I could see the ground
staying 55 degrees, but not here.

"RichToyBox" wrote in message
news:vLqAc.47756$Hg2.30050@attbi_s04...
You may be surprised at the temperature of the pond from 500 watt
heater.
First if the pond is protected from evaporation and allowed some solar
heat,
it will supply heat to the soil, until it drops to about 55 degrees, and
then it starts being heated by the natural ground temperature, which is
a
fairly constant 55 degrees. So the heater should be raising the
temperature
from the 55 degree level, and all of your heat losses should be through
the
cover.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html
"MC" wrote in message
om...
The price range seems to run the gambit- 500W from $40 to $500+.

As I understand it, roughly each Watt will raise 1 gallon of water 10
degrees. So if my cover keeps my 500 gallon pond at a minimum of 40
degrees, a 500W heater will raise it to 50 degrees.


wrote in message
...
p. 361 of aquatic ecosystems catalog, $44 and extra 30 for the
controller. but they
got titanium that are cheaper. mine has a separate temperature probe
and
the heater
is covered to prevent it from getting hit or melting liner down.
people
in warmer
zones dont understand that our ponds drop below 50o (when koi's
immune
system goes
down and feeding stops) sometime mid october in zone 5 and doesnt
rise
over 50o until
mid april. that is 6 months of no immunity and 6 months of no food.
it
is VERY VERY
hard on koi. you can always order some kind of pool from aquatic
ecosystem, or,
build a stud wall pond in the basement and line that with permalon.
Ingrid

(MC) wrote:
What kind of heater are you using? I've heard of people using
trough
heaters and there seems to be several kinds of pond heaters. I only
have 500 gallons in Chicago.

It is early, but my first year I lost all my Koi (used a bubbler to
keep hole open). Last winter, I brought them inside. They are now
kind
of big to bring inside. I am trying to plan ahead. If I need to
bring
them inside this winter, I need to buy a kiddie pool and you can't
find them in the winter in Chicago.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

I am in zone 5, Milwaukee north of you and to keep the pond clear of ice all winter
is cover it with a plastic lean to and run an airstone and/or a pump. The freezing
does not actually get that deep. That is how deep it has been recorded, probably
during the "little ice age" and no snow cover or out in the middle of a farmers
field. this is the depth used for burying people so their coffins dont get heaved
out of the ground by frost.
all summer long my pond heats the surrounding soil. the 1.5 feet sticks up out of
the ground is insulated.
in any case, 500 watts did 1600 gallons kept water at or above 50o all but one month
this last winter. Ingrid

(MC) wrote:
I believe the frostline in Chicago is 36" meaning that the ground
freezes up to 36 below ground. In zone 7 I could see the ground
staying 55 degrees, but not here.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

What are the pros and cons of lean to versus a solar type surface cover?

wrote in message ...
I am in zone 5, Milwaukee north of you and to keep the pond clear of ice all winter
is cover it with a plastic lean to and run an airstone and/or a pump. The freezing
does not actually get that deep. That is how deep it has been recorded, probably
during the "little ice age" and no snow cover or out in the middle of a farmers
field. this is the depth used for burying people so their coffins dont get heaved
out of the ground by frost.
all summer long my pond heats the surrounding soil. the 1.5 feet sticks up out of
the ground is insulated.
in any case, 500 watts did 1600 gallons kept water at or above 50o all but one month
this last winter. Ingrid

(MC) wrote:
I believe the frostline in Chicago is 36" meaning that the ground
freezes up to 36 below ground. In zone 7 I could see the ground
staying 55 degrees, but not here.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

A solar cover laid on the surface of the water interfers with the gas
exchange, toxics out, oxygen in. With the lean-to or a domed structure, gas
exchange is the same as without a cover. The solar cover has a relative R
value for heat to cross from the water to the cold outside air. The lean-to
structure has a lot of dead air, which is a pretty good insulator, between
the water and the outside. My lean-to is covered with 2 layers of poly
sheeting and 1 layer of the solar cover, so my R value from warm air over
pond to cold outside air is higher than just solar cover. Plants do not
have to be removed from the pond if covered with lean-to structure, and I
keep tropical plants over the winter with blooms on tropical lilies until
late January, cannas bloom all winter, taro blooms during the winter. Since
a solar cover is designed for direct water contact, all of these plants
would have to go.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html
"MC" wrote in message
om...
What are the pros and cons of lean to versus a solar type surface cover?

wrote in message
...
I am in zone 5, Milwaukee north of you and to keep the pond clear of ice
all winter
is cover it with a plastic lean to and run an airstone and/or a pump.
The freezing
does not actually get that deep. That is how deep it has been recorded,
probably
during the "little ice age" and no snow cover or out in the middle of a
farmers
field. this is the depth used for burying people so their coffins dont
get heaved
out of the ground by frost.
all summer long my pond heats the surrounding soil. the 1.5 feet sticks
up out of
the ground is insulated.
in any case, 500 watts did 1600 gallons kept water at or above 50o all
but one month
this last winter. Ingrid

(MC) wrote:
I believe the frostline in Chicago is 36" meaning that the ground
freezes up to 36 below ground. In zone 7 I could see the ground
staying 55 degrees, but not here.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

On 21 Jun 2004 14:58:39 -0700, (MC) wrote:

What are the pros and cons of lean to versus a solar type surface cover?

wrote in message ...
I am in zone 5, Milwaukee north of you and to keep the pond clear of ice all winter
is cover it with a plastic lean to and run an airstone and/or a pump. The freezing
does not actually get that deep. That is how deep it has been recorded, probably
during the "little ice age" and no snow cover or out in the middle of a farmers
field. this is the depth used for burying people so their coffins dont get heaved
out of the ground by frost.
all summer long my pond heats the surrounding soil. the 1.5 feet sticks up out of
the ground is insulated.
in any case, 500 watts did 1600 gallons kept water at or above 50o all but one month
this last winter. Ingrid

(MC) wrote:
I believe the frostline in Chicago is 36" meaning that the ground
freezes up to 36 below ground. In zone 7 I could see the ground
staying 55 degrees, but not here.


Ice thickness is not the same as frozen ground because the water can
move. Warm water from the bottom (yes, it is warmer there) circulates
to the top. The soil cannot do that so the frost goes deeper and
deeper.

I live in zone 5 and this past winter was the coldest in 30 years.
Ground frost was 4 feet deep in exposed areas. My 3 feet deep pond
had a maximum of 18 inches of ice on it.

John