fish euthanasia

"george" wrote in message
news:5wPvd.656159$mD.341878@attbi_s02...
snip
Of course not. My mother got the death she wanted, but maybe not when she
expected it (who does?). That is perhaps the only consolation I have from
the
entire ordeal, that and the fact that she live a long life, was a good
woman who
worked her ass off for her family, and was loved by all who knew her.

I hope she didn't suffer, and offer my condolences for your loss.

BV.

"george" wrote in message
news:QORvd.758002$8_6.134000@attbi_s04...
snip
(ever wonder why people laugh when Dick Van Dyke stubs his toe?). So do
other animals,
snip

I hate to off on a humorous angle, but other animals laugh when Dick Van
Dyke stubs his toe?

Sorry I couldn't resist

--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

"george" wrote in message
news:QORvd.758002$8_6.134000@attbi_s04...

"RichToyBox" wrote in message
...
Fish may not feel pain by your definition of pain, but they feel
discomfort,
which is one of my definitions of pain. If you don't believe it, look
at the
actions of a fish with parasites, trying to scape them off, or jumping
out of
the water to loosen them. They react to a tummy ache or head ache or
whatever
by going and laying off by themselves, rather than swimming with the
other
fish and coming to eat. When taken out of water, they do a lot of
flopping
around trying to get back into the water, and I would say that was a
reaction
to the discomfort of being out of water.

Fight or flight response. Sorry. That is not pain. That is a midbrain
function, an involuntary response. Humans can express laughter and
sadness.
Two very different emotional responses. The physiological process
involved is
exactly the same. The difference is how your brain interprets the
stimulus. It
is a very complex interaction between the nerves and senses of our bodies
and
the higher functions of our brain, specifically the neocortex portion of
the
cerebral hemisphere. Pain is nearly the exact same physiological
response. The
difference between these emotions is in how our neocortex interpretes the
signals. We have it hardwired in our bodies to have those physiological
responses, and to distinguish between what the stimulus means (ever wonder
why
people laugh when Dick Van Dyke stubs his toe?). So do other animals,
particularly mammalian predators. The difference in that how we
experience
those sensations depend on how our our neocortex interprets the stimulus.

Doesn't this assume that fish process the pain in the same manner as humans?
Isn't it possible that fish have a more simple thathurtsswimawaycortex? We
can distinguish between a pinch in the butt and a kick in the ass, because
we have the hardware/software. That doesn't mean that all pain processing is
so capable in all animals. Isn't that a valid possibility?

snip
Specific wording with specific definitions doesn't change what the
respondents
on this thread have been trying to say. Personnally I use the clove
oil,
because it is used for other treatments, such as abrasion treatments
with
iodine, parasite scrapings, and injections when needed. It may not be
needed
for pain, but it makes the fish much easier to handle during these
procedures,
and I "assume" much less "painful" for the fish. Seeing a fish out of
water is
painful for me, if not them.

Ah, that is the real issue, isn't it? How it makes us feel. Am I Right?
Again, anthropomorphization. It makes us feel bad at least in part,
because we
sympathize with it and think that we wouldn't want to "feel" like what we
think
the fish is feeling. No offense, but how we feel about the issue has no
bearing
on what a fish is or is not feeling.

I disagree. I do not think it is anthropomorphizing the situation by
considering the fish's suffering. it would be anthropomorphizing the
situation if the fish gasped, grabbed it's chest, and then fell down
dramatically.

And I wish we could drop that concept, because that word is very difficult
to type.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

"george" wrote in message
news:umYvd.759042$8_6.648558@attbi_s04...
snip
You have a valid point with one exception. I am not argueing that fish
feel
pain, I am argueing that I do not know if they do or do not. So erroring
on
the side of compassion, I feel it is safer to assume they feel pain, and
as
such treat them with compassion. So you see I can't provide data to
support
my claim, because my claim is I don't know.

As for fish anatomy, I'd love to discuss that...and as you seem
knowledgeable, I'd love to further those discussions. In fact, I am
going to
run off now and start some new threads...

BV.


Probably a good idea. I can be tiresome sometimes.


Clearly we are all very passionate about this topic. Passion is rarely
tiresome, tiring, but not tiresome.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

I LOVE OUR ICE QUEEN LEAVE HER ALONE LOL. DON'T MIND HIM NEDRA



http://community.webtv.net/rebeljoe/POND

"Benign Vanilla" wrote in message
...

"george" wrote in message
news:5wPvd.656159$mD.341878@attbi_s02...
snip
Of course not. My mother got the death she wanted, but maybe not when she
expected it (who does?). That is perhaps the only consolation I have from
the
entire ordeal, that and the fact that she live a long life, was a good
woman who
worked her ass off for her family, and was loved by all who knew her.

I hope she didn't suffer, and offer my condolences for your loss.

BV.


Unfortunately, she did suffer a lot, but thankfully it didn't drag out for years
like it does for some. I had an aunt who had Alzheimer's, and who lingered for
12 years in a nursing home. I cannot imagine what her family went through.
Anyway, thanks for the sentiment.

"Benign Vanilla" wrote in message
...

"george" wrote in message
news:QORvd.758002$8_6.134000@attbi_s04...

"RichToyBox" wrote in message
...
Fish may not feel pain by your definition of pain, but they feel
discomfort,
which is one of my definitions of pain. If you don't believe it, look
at the
actions of a fish with parasites, trying to scape them off, or jumping
out of
the water to loosen them. They react to a tummy ache or head ache or
whatever
by going and laying off by themselves, rather than swimming with the
other
fish and coming to eat. When taken out of water, they do a lot of
flopping
around trying to get back into the water, and I would say that was a
reaction
to the discomfort of being out of water.

Fight or flight response. Sorry. That is not pain. That is a midbrain
function, an involuntary response. Humans can express laughter and
sadness.
Two very different emotional responses. The physiological process
involved is
exactly the same. The difference is how your brain interprets the
stimulus. It
is a very complex interaction between the nerves and senses of our bodies
and
the higher functions of our brain, specifically the neocortex portion of
the
cerebral hemisphere. Pain is nearly the exact same physiological
response. The
difference between these emotions is in how our neocortex interpretes the
signals. We have it hardwired in our bodies to have those physiological
responses, and to distinguish between what the stimulus means (ever wonder
why
people laugh when Dick Van Dyke stubs his toe?). So do other animals,
particularly mammalian predators. The difference in that how we
experience
those sensations depend on how our our neocortex interprets the stimulus.

Doesn't this assume that fish process the pain in the same manner as humans?

If by that you are asking if they process the stimulus in the same way, the
answer is no, because they process the stimulus in their brainstem, whereas we
take it a giant step further and filter it through our neocortex, which is an
organ fish don't have. THAT is a quantum leap from what fish do.

Isn't it possible that fish have a more simple thathurtsswimawaycortex? We
can distinguish between a pinch in the butt and a kick in the ass, because
we have the hardware/software. That doesn't mean that all pain processing is
so capable in all animals. Isn't that a valid possibility?

You are confusing pain with stimulus. Pain is an emotional reaction to harmful
stimulus, the reaction occurring in the neocortex of higher life forms. Fish do
not have a neocortex and so cannot form the emotional reaction that we call
pain. So their reaction is simply a fight or flight response originating from
their midbrain.

snip
Specific wording with specific definitions doesn't change what the
respondents
on this thread have been trying to say. Personnally I use the clove
oil,
because it is used for other treatments, such as abrasion treatments
with
iodine, parasite scrapings, and injections when needed. It may not be
needed
for pain, but it makes the fish much easier to handle during these
procedures,
and I "assume" much less "painful" for the fish. Seeing a fish out of
water is
painful for me, if not them.

Ah, that is the real issue, isn't it? How it makes us feel. Am I Right?
Again, anthropomorphization. It makes us feel bad at least in part,
because we
sympathize with it and think that we wouldn't want to "feel" like what we
think
the fish is feeling. No offense, but how we feel about the issue has no
bearing
on what a fish is or is not feeling.

I disagree. I do not think it is anthropomorphizing the situation by
considering the fish's suffering. it would be anthropomorphizing the
situation if the fish gasped, grabbed it's chest, and then fell down
dramatically.

If the fish gasped, grabbed it's chest, and then fell down dramatically, it
would certainly be considered anthropomorphizing - on the part of the fish!
Again, when a person attributes human form or personality to things not human,
that is anthropomorphizing. Attributing the emotion of suffering to an animal
that is incapble of said emotion IS the very essence of the definition of
anthropomorphizing.


And I wish we could drop that concept, because that word is very difficult
to type.

Fine. come up with a different term for it. Call it human-centered, if you
like.

"Benign Vanilla" wrote in message
...

"george" wrote in message
news:umYvd.759042$8_6.648558@attbi_s04...
snip
You have a valid point with one exception. I am not argueing that fish
feel
pain, I am argueing that I do not know if they do or do not. So erroring
on
the side of compassion, I feel it is safer to assume they feel pain, and
as
such treat them with compassion. So you see I can't provide data to
support
my claim, because my claim is I don't know.

As for fish anatomy, I'd love to discuss that...and as you seem
knowledgeable, I'd love to further those discussions. In fact, I am
going to
run off now and start some new threads...

BV.


Probably a good idea. I can be tiresome sometimes.


Clearly we are all very passionate about this topic. Passion is rarely
tiresome, tiring, but not tiresome.


Well one result is that at least the group is still alive.

"george" wrote in message
news:_Q_vd.198222$V41.106219@attbi_s52...
snip
Doesn't this assume that fish process the pain in the same manner as
humans?

If by that you are asking if they process the stimulus in the same way,
the
answer is no, because they process the stimulus in their brainstem,
whereas we
take it a giant step further and filter it through our neocortex, which is
an
organ fish don't have. THAT is a quantum leap from what fish do.

Agreed, about the difference. (On a side note, I always giggle at the phrase
Quantum Leap. If it were a Quantum leap, the difference would be small, not
great. LOL) I don't however agree that pain can only be defined by what you
refer to as our emotional response. Just because humans respond to pain in
one way, does not mean that other species respond in the same manner.

Isn't it possible that fish have a more simple thathurtsswimawaycortex?
We
can distinguish between a pinch in the butt and a kick in the ass,
because
we have the hardware/software. That doesn't mean that all pain
processing is
so capable in all animals. Isn't that a valid possibility?

You are confusing pain with stimulus. Pain is an emotional reaction to
harmful
stimulus, the reaction occurring in the neocortex of higher life forms.
Fish do
not have a neocortex and so cannot form the emotional reaction that we
call
pain. So their reaction is simply a fight or flight response originating
from
their midbrain.

It seems we need to come up with a definition of pain that we both agree is
correct. I'd venture to say we have two different definitions.

snip


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

"george" wrote in message
news:JR_vd.575185$D%.424645@attbi_s51...
snip
As for fish anatomy, I'd love to discuss that...and as you seem
knowledgeable, I'd love to further those discussions. In fact, I am
going to
run off now and start some new threads...

BV.


Probably a good idea. I can be tiresome sometimes.


Clearly we are all very passionate about this topic. Passion is rarely
tiresome, tiring, but not tiresome.


Well one result is that at least the group is still alive.


If the great salt battle of 2003-2004 can't kill this group, certainly the
fish/pain issue can't. LOL.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.