Sudden Oto Death Syndrome...

I know it's not a "syndrome" persay, but we've all experienced the Oto death
paradox.... So I ask this...

Does EVERYONE have that problem??? Why I ask is I was talking to a LFS girl,
the smart, nice, and very knowledgeful one, about how their Otos go when
they get them... When I asked her that, she stopped sortof, and asked,
"You've heard of their problems haven't you?" and of course having them and
experiencing their problem, I said,"Yes, why do they die like they do?" She
said, because people, no matter how you tell them to expect it, they don't
understand it....

Long story short, smaller fish dont' transport well, especially when they
are sedated and the trip is long.... Smaller fish have less 'reserve'
energy to make the trip, and the ones that do, and may look healthy, unless
they are de-stressed, fed and comfy in their environment, they probably
won't take well.... She said when they get Otos, they have an Ototank they
go in, but not until 3 things are met, water quality(matching the water
transported in as close as possible), temperature, and
circulation/aeration... They have a 75g that sits in the back and boy, when
you see a 75g with nearly 100 Otos, bare bottom or not, it's pretty cool....
bad part was she said they lose nearly 10% every shipment.... I said, I WISH
I ONLY lost 10%... she said you're probably not acclimating them right....
probably true, even when I tried to acclimate 10, I got 6 to live... that's
40% loss for me.... typical loss I've heard is 50%.... that just plain
sucks....

RedForeman ©® wrote in message
...
I know it's not a "syndrome" persay, but we've all experienced the Oto
death
paradox.... So I ask this...

Does EVERYONE have that problem??? Why I ask is I was talking to a LFS
girl,
the smart, nice, and very knowledgeful one, about how their Otos go when
they get them... When I asked her that, she stopped sortof, and asked,
"You've heard of their problems haven't you?" and of course having them
and
experiencing their problem, I said,"Yes, why do they die like they do?"
She
said, because people, no matter how you tell them to expect it, they don't
understand it....

Long story short, smaller fish dont' transport well, especially when they
are sedated and the trip is long.... Smaller fish have less 'reserve'
energy to make the trip, and the ones that do, and may look healthy,
unless
they are de-stressed, fed and comfy in their environment, they probably
won't take well.... She said when they get Otos, they have an Ototank
they
go in, but not until 3 things are met, water quality(matching the water
transported in as close as possible), temperature, and
circulation/aeration... They have a 75g that sits in the back and boy,
when
you see a 75g with nearly 100 Otos, bare bottom or not, it's pretty
cool....
bad part was she said they lose nearly 10% every shipment.... I said, I
WISH
I ONLY lost 10%... she said you're probably not acclimating them right....
probably true, even when I tried to acclimate 10, I got 6 to live...
that's
40% loss for me.... typical loss I've heard is 50%.... that just plain
sucks....


The reason for the high mortality in oto's as explained to me by several
importers and wholesalers, is advanced starvation. Oto's can be pretty
choosy about what they eat, especially as most are wild caught and have to
deal with the stress of capture and shipping. Their somewhat specialized
diet needs are rarely accommodated, and they get weak from lack of food.
They may have gone 2 or 3 weeks without food by the time they hit the LFS.
The hobbyist buys them in another few days at least, and they are added in
their weakened state to the home aquarium. Even there, the proper diet may
not be readily available.
Most algae eaters have a very difficult time coming back from an extended
hunger period. They just don't fatten back up, and continue to fade.
But if they arrive with a plump belly and their diet concerns are properly
handled, they will end up being long range inhabitants. Oto's may just be
one of those somewhat desirable fish that doesn't ship well.

Jim

"Jim Brown" wrote in message
.. .

RedForeman ©® wrote in message
...
I know it's not a "syndrome" persay, but we've all experienced the Oto
death
paradox.... So I ask this...

Does EVERYONE have that problem??? Why I ask is I was talking to a LFS
girl,
the smart, nice, and very knowledgeful one, about how their Otos go when
they get them... When I asked her that, she stopped sortof, and asked,
"You've heard of their problems haven't you?" and of course having them
and
experiencing their problem, I said,"Yes, why do they die like they do?"
She
said, because people, no matter how you tell them to expect it, they
don't
understand it....

Long story short, smaller fish dont' transport well, especially when
they
are sedated and the trip is long.... Smaller fish have less 'reserve'
energy to make the trip, and the ones that do, and may look healthy,
unless
they are de-stressed, fed and comfy in their environment, they probably
won't take well.... She said when they get Otos, they have an Ototank
they
go in, but not until 3 things are met, water quality(matching the water
transported in as close as possible), temperature, and
circulation/aeration... They have a 75g that sits in the back and boy,
when
you see a 75g with nearly 100 Otos, bare bottom or not, it's pretty
cool....
bad part was she said they lose nearly 10% every shipment.... I said, I
WISH
I ONLY lost 10%... she said you're probably not acclimating them
right....
probably true, even when I tried to acclimate 10, I got 6 to live...
that's
40% loss for me.... typical loss I've heard is 50%.... that just plain
sucks....


The reason for the high mortality in oto's as explained to me by several
importers and wholesalers, is advanced starvation. Oto's can be pretty
choosy about what they eat, especially as most are wild caught and have to
deal with the stress of capture and shipping. Their somewhat specialized
diet needs are rarely accommodated, and they get weak from lack of food.
They may have gone 2 or 3 weeks without food by the time they hit the LFS.
The hobbyist buys them in another few days at least, and they are added in
their weakened state to the home aquarium. Even there, the proper diet
may
not be readily available.
Most algae eaters have a very difficult time coming back from an extended
hunger period. They just don't fatten back up, and continue to fade.
But if they arrive with a plump belly and their diet concerns are properly
handled, they will end up being long range inhabitants. Oto's may just be
one of those somewhat desirable fish that doesn't ship well.

Jim

Yep, that reserve she mentioned was exactly what you elaborated on...
exactly... Is it more that they just don't bounce back like some other
resilient fish like danios or others?? I just hate that so SO many are
lost... but it's either that or we never would see one.... that's a
perplexing dilemma....

RedForeman ©® wrote in message
...

"Jim Brown" wrote in message
.. .

RedForeman ©® wrote in message
...
I know it's not a "syndrome" persay, but we've all experienced the Oto
death
paradox.... So I ask this...

Does EVERYONE have that problem??? Why I ask is I was talking to a LFS
girl,
the smart, nice, and very knowledgeful one, about how their Otos go
when
they get them... When I asked her that, she stopped sortof, and asked,
"You've heard of their problems haven't you?" and of course having
them
and
experiencing their problem, I said,"Yes, why do they die like they
do?"
She
said, because people, no matter how you tell them to expect it, they
don't
understand it....

Long story short, smaller fish dont' transport well, especially when
they
are sedated and the trip is long.... Smaller fish have less 'reserve'
energy to make the trip, and the ones that do, and may look healthy,
unless
they are de-stressed, fed and comfy in their environment, they
probably
won't take well.... She said when they get Otos, they have an Ototank
they
go in, but not until 3 things are met, water quality(matching the
water
transported in as close as possible), temperature, and
circulation/aeration... They have a 75g that sits in the back and boy,
when
you see a 75g with nearly 100 Otos, bare bottom or not, it's pretty
cool....
bad part was she said they lose nearly 10% every shipment.... I said,
I
WISH
I ONLY lost 10%... she said you're probably not acclimating them
right....
probably true, even when I tried to acclimate 10, I got 6 to live...
that's
40% loss for me.... typical loss I've heard is 50%.... that just plain
sucks....


The reason for the high mortality in oto's as explained to me by several
importers and wholesalers, is advanced starvation. Oto's can be pretty
choosy about what they eat, especially as most are wild caught and have
to
deal with the stress of capture and shipping. Their somewhat
specialized
diet needs are rarely accommodated, and they get weak from lack of food.
They may have gone 2 or 3 weeks without food by the time they hit the
LFS.
The hobbyist buys them in another few days at least, and they are added
in
their weakened state to the home aquarium. Even there, the proper diet
may
not be readily available.
Most algae eaters have a very difficult time coming back from an
extended
hunger period. They just don't fatten back up, and continue to fade.
But if they arrive with a plump belly and their diet concerns are
properly
handled, they will end up being long range inhabitants. Oto's may just
be
one of those somewhat desirable fish that doesn't ship well.

Jim

Yep, that reserve she mentioned was exactly what you elaborated on...
exactly... Is it more that they just don't bounce back like some other
resilient fish like danios or others?? I just hate that so SO many are
lost... but it's either that or we never would see one.... that's a
perplexing dilemma....



As I said earlier, the algae eaters just don't seem to bounce back. Maybe
the bacteria in the gut that breaks down the cellulose dies, so anything the
plecos eat just passes on through.
A simple test would be to buy any small regular type pleco from a LFS, as
long as the pleco has a sunken belly. No matter what you feed it, a sunken
belly always means an imminent death.

Jim

I got disappearing oto's, healthy pim cat though.... hmmm.

"RedForeman ©®" wrote in message
...

... They have a 75g that sits in the back and boy, when
you see a 75g with nearly 100 Otos, bare bottom or not, it's pretty cool....
bad part was she said they lose nearly 10% every shipment.... I said, I WISH
I ONLY lost 10%... she said you're probably not acclimating them right....
probably true, even when I tried to acclimate 10, I got 6 to live... that's
40% loss for me.... typical loss I've heard is 50%.... that just plain
sucks....

Yes, I always loose 50% also. Now I've bought three of them today :
thit way I am sure that, no mather what, I can not loose 50% ;-)

Now, I'll perform a little scientific experiment. I'll refer to them as "o*os",
or maybe "*t*s", like people do with their pl*cos. Maybe I'll increase the
suvival rate to 66% or more.

Pierre-Normand Houle wrote:

"RedForeman ©®" wrote in message
...

... They have a 75g that sits in the back and boy, when
you see a 75g with nearly 100 Otos, bare bottom or not, it's pretty
cool.... bad part was she said they lose nearly 10% every
shipment.... I said, I WISH I ONLY lost 10%... she said you're
probably not acclimating them right.... probably true, even when I
tried to acclimate 10, I got 6 to live... that's 40% loss for me....
typical loss I've heard is 50%.... that just plain sucks....

Yes, I always loose 50% also. Now I've bought three of them today :
thit way I am sure that, no mather what, I can not loose 50% ;-)

Now, I'll perform a little scientific experiment. I'll refer to them
as "o*os", or maybe "*t*s", like people do with their pl*cos. Maybe
I'll increase the suvival rate to 66% or more.

Here we go again.

Yes, people who talk about otos, are more likely to have otos, and hense
are much more likely to have otos die.

I predict that a keen observer will note a correlation...

I bought some yesterday for my work tank. Now I've mentioned the poor
blighters on usenet. Think I'll have a dead fish or two this morning
(or later this week)?

Stay tuned for results of this controlled experiment. ;-)

-Donald (the usenet fishkiller)
--
"When you've lost your ability to laugh, you've lost your ability to
think straight." -To Inherit the Wind

I think I have bought about 15 ottos a couple years ago. The last one
died a couple months ago. I never had any die right away. About half
got eaten by Discus. The others died 1 by 1 over the last couple
years....different planted tanks...different times. I do not know
why........and I was much luckier than others that bought ottos at the
same place. Maybe I took great care in acclimation and maybe these had
been at the LFS for weeks already......

After the otto experience....other than being sort of cute.....they
really are not worth much as algae eaters. As someone mentioned they do
eat brown algae (Diatomaceous films) but will never eat it all. You
just see a few tracks in it. If you really get a bad case of Diatoms
going in a big tank (like I did in a new 150) ...I mean where its brown
on everything....... get a little tiny 1 1/2 inch long Chinese Algae
Eater (CAE). It will clean it all up in an extremely short time (for
me 2 days). Then catch him and find him a new home. Most (not all)
turn into complete arseholes when they get bigger (4+ inches). A full
grown one is a good friend for Oscars or other such timid
cichlids......They just need a nook somewhere.

So.......ottos, no.......tiny otto size CAE, yes (for a quick visit).

PS. I think what made the Discus mad was the ottos would land on their
sides and try to hang on.


"Donald Kerns" wrote in message
...
Pierre-Normand Houle wrote:

"RedForeman ©®" wrote in message
...

... They have a 75g that sits in the back and boy, when
you see a 75g with nearly 100 Otos, bare bottom or not, it's pretty
cool.... bad part was she said they lose nearly 10% every
shipment.... I said, I WISH I ONLY lost 10%... she said you're
probably not acclimating them right.... probably true, even when I
tried to acclimate 10, I got 6 to live... that's 40% loss for
me....
typical loss I've heard is 50%.... that just plain sucks....

Yes, I always loose 50% also. Now I've bought three of them today :
thit way I am sure that, no mather what, I can not loose 50% ;-)

Now, I'll perform a little scientific experiment. I'll refer to them
as "o*os", or maybe "*t*s", like people do with their pl*cos. Maybe
I'll increase the suvival rate to 66% or more.

Here we go again.

Yes, people who talk about otos, are more likely to have otos, and
hense
are much more likely to have otos die.

I predict that a keen observer will note a correlation...

I bought some yesterday for my work tank. Now I've mentioned the poor
blighters on usenet. Think I'll have a dead fish or two this morning
(or later this week)?

Stay tuned for results of this controlled experiment. ;-)

-Donald (the usenet fishkiller)
--
"When you've lost your ability to laugh, you've lost your ability to
think straight." -To Inherit the Wind

I think I have bought about 15 ottos a couple years ago. The last one
died a couple months ago. I never had any die right away. About half
got eaten by Discus. The others died 1 by 1 over the last couple
years....different planted tanks...different times. I do not know
why........and I was much luckier than others that bought ottos at the
same place. Maybe I took great care in acclimation and maybe these had
been at the LFS for weeks already......

Where are you located? In the UK, they may not have this problem because the
transport is shorter... just a thought...

After the otto experience....other than being sort of cute.....they
really are not worth much as algae eaters. As someone mentioned they do
eat brown algae (Diatomaceous films) but will never eat it all. You
just see a few tracks in it. If you really get a bad case of Diatoms
going in a big tank (like I did in a new 150) ...I mean where its brown
on everything....... get a little tiny 1 1/2 inch long Chinese Algae
Eater (CAE). It will clean it all up in an extremely short time (for
me 2 days). Then catch him and find him a new home. Most (not all)
turn into complete arseholes when they get bigger (4+ inches). A full
grown one is a good friend for Oscars or other such timid
cichlids......They just need a nook somewhere.

I'm not a newbie, learning every day, but not a newbie....I've had Otos and
they do a wonderful job of cleaning and ridding a tank of brown algae... and
what you are describing is not the typical Oto....

Personally, I'll never own a CAE or SAE, either one.. not after having an
Oto... the CAE and SAE are just too risky, they do what you mention, attach
to the side of fish, eat them usually... and I've never had an Oto do that,
in 3 years, Never....

So.......ottos, no.......tiny otto size CAE, yes (for a quick visit).

PS. I think what made the Discus mad was the ottos would land on their
sides and try to hang on.

I just don't see Otos doing that, they may, but not to the extent of staying
there, but maybe because discus have a thick slime that is meant for fry and
it's packed with good stuff, maybe that's why they did it to begin with....

In the end, I only posted this because I'm sure someone, someday will google
for why their little Otos are all dead, and this post will help explain that
it's not their faults, and that Otos are just a sensative fish.....

My otos (12) that I originally got 2 years ago, 2 died the next day, then 2
more... and no more deaths for a year... moved three to another tank, they
all died.... left the remaining 3 in the cichlid tank for another year
before I had a pH crash... now I've looked for them, and am waiting for some
to be available....

"Donald Kerns" wrote in message
...
Pierre-Normand Houle wrote:

"RedForeman ©®" wrote in message
...

... They have a 75g that sits in the back and boy, when
you see a 75g with nearly 100 Otos, bare bottom or not, it's pretty
cool.... bad part was she said they lose nearly 10% every
shipment.... I said, I WISH I ONLY lost 10%... she said you're
probably not acclimating them right.... probably true, even when I
tried to acclimate 10, I got 6 to live... that's 40% loss for
me....
typical loss I've heard is 50%.... that just plain sucks....

Yes, I always loose 50% also. Now I've bought three of them today :
thit way I am sure that, no mather what, I can not loose 50% ;-)

Now, I'll perform a little scientific experiment. I'll refer to them
as "o*os", or maybe "*t*s", like people do with their pl*cos. Maybe
I'll increase the suvival rate to 66% or more.

Here we go again.

Yes, people who talk about otos, are more likely to have otos, and
hense
are much more likely to have otos die.

I predict that a keen observer will note a correlation...

I bought some yesterday for my work tank. Now I've mentioned the poor
blighters on usenet. Think I'll have a dead fish or two this morning
(or later this week)?

Stay tuned for results of this controlled experiment. ;-)

-Donald (the usenet fishkiller)
--
"When you've lost your ability to laugh, you've lost your ability to
think straight." -To Inherit the Wind

Donald Kerns wrote:

I bought some yesterday for my work tank. Now I've mentioned the poor
blighters on usenet. Think I'll have a dead fish or two this morning
(or later this week)?

Stay tuned for results of this controlled experiment. ;-)


Golly, looky there I said "oto" on usenet and lost one this morning.

It must be a curse. A curse I tell you...

(Don't buy skinny otos if you can help it...)

-Donald
--
"When you've lost your ability to laugh, you've lost your ability to
think straight." -To Inherit the Wind