Manufacture suggestions ( size of tank for filter)

Hi all,

Do people find that the manufacture recommendations for their filters
(ex: for up to a 30 gallon tank) are accurate, or do they stretch that?
Specifically, I'm interested in the Penguins.

I'd appreciate your thoughts!

"David" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi all,

Do people find that the manufacture recommendations for their filters
(ex: for up to a 30 gallon tank) are accurate, or do they stretch that?
Specifically, I'm interested in the Penguins.

I'd appreciate your thoughts!
=========================
I believe they stretch them a bit. Also, a filter that would be adequate
for a tank with a few small fish isn't going to work as well for the same
size tank with the maximum number of goldfish or large cichlids.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

"David" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi all,

Do people find that the manufacture recommendations for their filters
(ex: for up to a 30 gallon tank) are accurate, or do they stretch that?
Specifically, I'm interested in the Penguins.

I'd appreciate your thoughts!

JMO On 3 of my 4 tanks, I run at least 2 filters. On the 4th, the filter is
twice the size the manufacture recommends (AC 110 on a 60g tank) I believe
they may be a little over confident in their products, and it never hurts to
be over filtered ( better safe then sorry), unless you are creating under
water jet streams and waves you could surf on

David wrote,
Do people find that the manufacture recommendations for their filters
(ex: for up to a 30 gallon tank) are accurate, or do they stretch that?

I think the best thing that has happened with filters over the past 40
years is the bio-wheels - they remove DOCs where other hang-on power
filters without the bio-wheels don't. I would however, well over-size
the filter on any fish tank, and on tank of 55 gal. and up, use two
over sized filters................... Frank

On Sat, 4 Mar 2006 14:49:53 -0600, David wrote
(in article . com):

Hi all,

Do people find that the manufacture recommendations for their filters
(ex: for up to a 30 gallon tank) are accurate, or do they stretch that?
Specifically, I'm interested in the Penguins.

I'd appreciate your thoughts!


I think going for more than four or five tank turnovers per hour is useless
in most cases. If you really want super filtration, try a canister that will
do five tank turnovers per hour. It will give you much more contact with
filter media than any HOB with a similar flow rate. If you want to run just
one filter get that big two-sided Penguin, restrict the flow as much as
possible, and take the double cartridge option. This would give you around 4
or 5 turnovers for a 30 gallon and mega-contact with media. You'd probably
want to change only the first tier cartridges. The second tier would be for
biological filtration only.

As others have mentioned you might want to combine different types of
filtration. If you're not going for a planted tank, traditional undergravel
with an HOB powerfilter is an excellent combination.

-E

On 4 Mar 2006 17:53:30 -0800, "Frank" wrote:

David wrote,
Do people find that the manufacture recommendations for their filters
(ex: for up to a 30 gallon tank) are accurate, or do they stretch that?

I think the best thing that has happened with filters over the past 40
years is the bio-wheels - they remove DOCs where other hang-on power
filters without the bio-wheels don't. I would however, well over-size
the filter on any fish tank, and on tank of 55 gal. and up, use two
over sized filters................... Frank

Comparing the gph - gallons per hour - of various filters, instead of
tank size ratings, might give you a better handle on capabilities of
different brands. I compared a few of the popular brands and found
that their rated tank sizes did not always agree in gph. Different
brands might determine that 3 complete turnovers of a tank's water is
sufficient, while another company might rate their filters using 5
turnovers of water per hour. So the hypothetical 30 gallon tank might
be matched with 90 or 100 gph by one brand, but 150 gph by another
brand. Aquaclear and Whisper were pretty consistent, basing their tank
ratings on 5 tank turnovers an hour. Others varied, sometimes within a
brand; a rating of 5 turnovers an hour might be used for smaller tanks
while only three turnovers an hour was good for, in their opinion,
larger tanks. So recommended tank size for a given filter is
subjective and will be forever debated, gallons per hour is a
measurable, objective rating.

-- Mister Gardener

"Mr. Gardener" wrote in message
news
On 4 Mar 2006 17:53:30 -0800, "Frank" wrote:

David wrote,
Do people find that the manufacture recommendations for their filters
(ex: for up to a 30 gallon tank) are accurate, or do they stretch
that?

I think the best thing that has happened with filters over the past 40
years is the bio-wheels - they remove DOCs where other hang-on power
filters without the bio-wheels don't. I would however, well over-size
the filter on any fish tank, and on tank of 55 gal. and up, use two
over sized filters................... Frank

Comparing the gph - gallons per hour - of various filters, instead of
tank size ratings, might give you a better handle on capabilities of
different brands. I compared a few of the popular brands and found
that their rated tank sizes did not always agree in gph. Different
brands might determine that 3 complete turnovers of a tank's water is
sufficient, while another company might rate their filters using 5
turnovers of water per hour. So the hypothetical 30 gallon tank might
be matched with 90 or 100 gph by one brand, but 150 gph by another
brand. Aquaclear and Whisper were pretty consistent, basing their tank
ratings on 5 tank turnovers an hour. Others varied, sometimes within a
brand; a rating of 5 turnovers an hour might be used for smaller tanks
while only three turnovers an hour was good for, in their opinion,
larger tanks. So recommended tank size for a given filter is
subjective and will be forever debated, gallons per hour is a
measurable, objective rating.

-- Mister Gardener

While gph is a measurable number, the _quality_ of the filtration is
better described as (gph x surface area). This is why a canister filter
for the same tank is at a lower gph (and probably does a better job as
mechanical, chemical and biological filtration all happen better at lower
flow rates). Other than that, flow rate only describes turbulence (heat
distribution) and pick-up power. Sorry to rain on your attempt to
simplify things ;~). I think Eric summed it up well. Go big, dial them
slow and use multiple systems where it's possible.

From a filtration view, your big TetraTec is multiple systems, but since
it only has one motor, one pump, one intake and one serial flow path,
then from a system's view, it has no redundancy, so it's one filter (your
fish are one snail shell in the impeller-well away from stress ;~).

It could be argued that 2 lower quality filters running at the same time
are better than a single high quality filter (like keeping your
photocopier separate from your printer or scanner), but the argument gets
weaker as filter quality improves (built-in bypass, staged intake grills
etc).

My strategy : use 2 or more filters, each capable of at least 75% of the
tank's requirements, and alternate their cleaning.
--
www.NetMax.tk

On Sun, 5 Mar 2006 11:31:42 -0500, "NetMax"
wrote:

"Mr. Gardener" wrote in message
news
On 4 Mar 2006 17:53:30 -0800, "Frank" wrote:

David wrote,
Do people find that the manufacture recommendations for their filters
(ex: for up to a 30 gallon tank) are accurate, or do they stretch
that?

I think the best thing that has happened with filters over the past 40
years is the bio-wheels - they remove DOCs where other hang-on power
filters without the bio-wheels don't. I would however, well over-size
the filter on any fish tank, and on tank of 55 gal. and up, use two
over sized filters................... Frank

Comparing the gph - gallons per hour - of various filters, instead of
tank size ratings, might give you a better handle on capabilities of
different brands. I compared a few of the popular brands and found
that their rated tank sizes did not always agree in gph. Different
brands might determine that 3 complete turnovers of a tank's water is
sufficient, while another company might rate their filters using 5
turnovers of water per hour. So the hypothetical 30 gallon tank might
be matched with 90 or 100 gph by one brand, but 150 gph by another
brand. Aquaclear and Whisper were pretty consistent, basing their tank
ratings on 5 tank turnovers an hour. Others varied, sometimes within a
brand; a rating of 5 turnovers an hour might be used for smaller tanks
while only three turnovers an hour was good for, in their opinion,
larger tanks. So recommended tank size for a given filter is
subjective and will be forever debated, gallons per hour is a
measurable, objective rating.

-- Mister Gardener

While gph is a measurable number, the _quality_ of the filtration is
better described as (gph x surface area). This is why a canister filter
for the same tank is at a lower gph (and probably does a better job as
mechanical, chemical and biological filtration all happen better at lower
flow rates). Other than that, flow rate only describes turbulence (heat
distribution) and pick-up power. Sorry to rain on your attempt to
simplify things ;~). I think Eric summed it up well. Go big, dial them
slow and use multiple systems where it's possible.

I didn't intend to recommend filter choices, I intended to provide the
only objective specs that are usually named by the various
manufacturers. I know that I didn't say "more is better", because I
don't believe it myself. Just providing a point of reference.

From a filtration view, your big TetraTec is multiple systems, but since
it only has one motor, one pump, one intake and one serial flow path,
then from a system's view, it has no redundancy, so it's one filter (your
fish are one snail shell in the impeller-well away from stress ;~).

My Tetratec is not the only filter on that 55. It is supplemented by
another power filter at the other end of the tank which is rated at
300 gph, in effect, sized so that if either filter goes down, the
other will be able to carry the full load. Both filters are dialed
down somewhat, the rates being changed from time to time to provide
good circulation for the plants which are all growing at different
rates as they begin to get established.

My strategy : use 2 or more filters, each capable of at least 75% of the
tank's requirements, and alternate their cleaning.

Which is what I'm running. And how I'm maintaining them. Once again, I
think the original thread was about comparing manufacturer's claims
for power filters, not about the quality or placement of various types
of filtration.

-- Mister Gardener

"Mr. Gardener" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 5 Mar 2006 11:31:42 -0500, "NetMax"
wrote:

"Mr. Gardener" wrote in message
news
On 4 Mar 2006 17:53:30 -0800, "Frank"
wrote:

David wrote,
Do people find that the manufacture recommendations for their
filters
(ex: for up to a 30 gallon tank) are accurate, or do they stretch
that?

I think the best thing that has happened with filters over the past
40
years is the bio-wheels - they remove DOCs where other hang-on power
filters without the bio-wheels don't. I would however, well over-size
the filter on any fish tank, and on tank of 55 gal. and up, use two
over sized filters................... Frank

Comparing the gph - gallons per hour - of various filters, instead
of
tank size ratings, might give you a better handle on capabilities of
different brands. I compared a few of the popular brands and found
that their rated tank sizes did not always agree in gph. Different
brands might determine that 3 complete turnovers of a tank's water is
sufficient, while another company might rate their filters using 5
turnovers of water per hour. So the hypothetical 30 gallon tank might
be matched with 90 or 100 gph by one brand, but 150 gph by another
brand. Aquaclear and Whisper were pretty consistent, basing their
tank
ratings on 5 tank turnovers an hour. Others varied, sometimes within
a
brand; a rating of 5 turnovers an hour might be used for smaller
tanks
while only three turnovers an hour was good for, in their opinion,
larger tanks. So recommended tank size for a given filter is
subjective and will be forever debated, gallons per hour is a
measurable, objective rating.

-- Mister Gardener

While gph is a measurable number, the _quality_ of the filtration is
better described as (gph x surface area). This is why a canister
filter
for the same tank is at a lower gph (and probably does a better job as
mechanical, chemical and biological filtration all happen better at
lower
flow rates). Other than that, flow rate only describes turbulence
(heat
distribution) and pick-up power. Sorry to rain on your attempt to
simplify things ;~). I think Eric summed it up well. Go big, dial
them
slow and use multiple systems where it's possible.

I didn't intend to recommend filter choices, I intended to provide the
only objective specs that are usually named by the various
manufacturers. I know that I didn't say "more is better", because I
don't believe it myself. Just providing a point of reference.

Yep. There doesn't seem to be any credible common criteria to use when
comparing filter systems. Chemical filtration is straighforward
(supports it or not and how much) and if you really dig you might find
the particle size a filter media will screen to, but how to calculate
'effective' surface area for biological filtration is beyond me.

From a filtration view, your big TetraTec is multiple systems, but
since
it only has one motor, one pump, one intake and one serial flow path,
then from a system's view, it has no redundancy, so it's one filter
(your
fish are one snail shell in the impeller-well away from stress ;~).

My Tetratec is not the only filter on that 55. It is supplemented by
another power filter at the other end of the tank which is rated at
300 gph, in effect, sized so that if either filter goes down, the
other will be able to carry the full load. Both filters are dialed
down somewhat, the rates being changed from time to time to provide
good circulation for the plants which are all growing at different
rates as they begin to get established.

I was justing using your TetraTec as an example. I know you have
multiple filters on that tank. I tend to post in generalizations for the
benefit of others who are investigating topics. Sorry for the confusion.

My strategy : use 2 or more filters, each capable of at least 75% of
the
tank's requirements, and alternate their cleaning.

Which is what I'm running. And how I'm maintaining them. Once again, I
think the original thread was about comparing manufacturer's claims
for power filters, not about the quality or placement of various types
of filtration.

Yep, just generalizing ).... but quality & quantity is part of the
formula. Manufacturer's claims tend to be adequate for a normally loaded
tank with proper maintenance, however this set-up tends to be a rarity
;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk


-- Mister Gardener

On Sun, 5 Mar 2006 12:55:34 -0500, "NetMax"
wrote:


I was justing using your TetraTec as an example.

Yeahsureright. You were just jumping on another opportunity to jump on
Whisper people. I've seen your web site. Might as well rename your
power filter page, the "I Love Aquaclear"page.

Getting serious again - so much of this agony over learning the basics
could be prevented if publishers would begin offering realistic and up
to date beginner's books. 90% of the books available to the average
hobbyist, especially the beginner, are pure detritus. Even the books
that really try to do some educating, with 30 pages devoted to
detailed information on water chemistry and quality, completely blow
it when they wind up the chapter with "your local dealer can help you
select the filter that is right for you." If my local dealer had set
me up right in the beginning, I wouldn't be sitting here reading this
book for the 18th time trying to figure out why my fish are dying.

-- Mister Gardener