is it white-spot, velvet or both?

Is it White-spot, Velvet, or both?

I have three fresh water tropical tanks
One 45 litre shallow tank for growing on corydoras and Ancistrus fry
One 70 litre tank which will be home to my Ancistrus so they can breed
in peace, but currently houses an assortment of tetras.
One 170 litre heavily planted tank with a large piece of mopani wood
and 2" deep, fine gravel, which is my 'show tank' , and contains;

2 ancistrus (7 years old)
3 albino corydoras(1 year old - 1.5" long)
3 clown loaches (5 years old - 3" long)
2 upside down catfish (5 years old - 2" long)
1 whiptail catfish(7 years old) - 4 " long)
2 siamese flying foxes (2 years old - 3" long)
8 congo tetras (6 months old - 2" long)
6 bleeding heart tetras (1 year old - 1.5" long)

Nitrites 0
Nitrates 0
Ph 7.2
Gh 160
Kh 140
Temp 24 (75)

(the tap water is virtually the same as my aquarium)

I have not lost a fish in four years (and hardly had any illnesses at
all), the catfish are spawning regularly and I successfully raise the
fry and sell them. All the other fish were in peak condition and
regularly display courtship behaviour.

I feed flake food and catfish pellets once a day, with frozen
bloodworm and brineshrimp once or twice a week, and the odd garden pea
or courgette for the catfish.

I don't use CO2, the light is on a timer for 10 hours a day, and I use
a liquid plant food once a week

Waterchanges are once a week and I change roughly 12%, gently cleaning
the filter.
For several months I have not gravel vac'd much of the substrate as
all the bottom-feeding fish and numerous malasian trumpet snails keep
it pretty clean and the plants are fairly thick.
I use cold treated water to re-fill the aquarium which helps to
trigger spawning.

For several weeks I have noticed one fish or another flash against a
plant or rock - just once, every now and then. So I have been watching
closely for white-spot, but seen nothing else to signify its presence.

About four weeks ago one of my albino corydoras suddenly became ill.
She developed blood under the skin on her back and became very
listless.
I removed her to one of the tubs I use for newly hatched fry, and went
to the cupboard for my interpet anti-internal bacteria treatment. The
bottle was empty - it had all leaked out. Wondering what to do I
decided to briefly bath her in Methylene blue and then add some human
amoxicillin to the water in her tub (this was the first time I had
tried doing this - and you cannot buy fishmox in the UK)
The next day she was the same, I went out and bought some interpet
anti-internal bacteria treatment, changed her water and added the
medication. Over the next couple of days she got worse, lost all
ability to balance or swim and her skin and fins began to rot badly -
eventually I put her out of her misery using a 25% dose of top quality
Gin which I have read about on the web (again something I have never
had to do before, she died pretty peacefully 30 minutes later)

Still thinking this was a bacterial infection I treated the show tank
just to be safe.

Two weeks went by with no further illness, then I started noticing an
increase in the number of visible trumpet snails in the tank and I
realised I had not seen the clown loaches for a couple of days, then
I saw white salt-grain sized spots on the bleeding-heart tetras - just
a few, mostly on the tails.
Thinking I knew what was going on I did a 30% waterchange (warming the
added water) and dosed the tank with interpet anti white-spot, which I
got from my cupboard.
I increased the temperature to about 80 degrees, and turned off the
light.
The medicine must have been four years old and after a couple of days
it became clear it had had little or no effect. I went out and bought
a new bottle and on day four of the treatment I added a full dose of
the new stuff. By now all the bleeding heart tetras were badly covered
in salt-grain white spots and were hanging near the surface, not
eating and clamping their fins, their gills and mouths were moving
very fast, and some were developing secondary bacterial infections, I
added 250 milligrams of amoxicillin to the tank to try and combat the
infections.
The clown loaches were now out of their hiding place but looking very
ill although they had only one or two white spots each, they actually
looked more like they had got velvet, but it was very subtle.
The next morning two of the tetras were dead.Next day two more died,
and the last two died the following day.

By now I was wondering if it could all be velvet and maybe it just
looked like white-spot on the bleeding heart tetras? Could that have
been why neither dose of white spot medication seemed to help?
I did a 50% water change and added a carbon filter for 24 hours, the
next day I did a 30% water change, removed the carbon and treated the
tank for velvet (again using interpet product)
The clown loaches were listless, not eating, not moving around much
and by now looking pretty velvety, they were breathing fast, and lying
around on the gravel.
They also had a couple of the white-spots each here and there.
Two days later and two of them were dead.
As I write this the last one is lying on the gravel upside down
looking as though it will die. It is four days since I added the
velvet meds, I have just done a 50% waterchange and thoroughly vac'd
the gravel (I read on the web that by removing as many spores from the
gravel as possible you help to halt the progress of the parasite -
makes sense once you think of it)
I have re-filled the tank using warm water and added a half-strength
dose of velvet medication

Up til now none of the other fish have been affected at all, however
one (not both) of my upside down catfish is now covered all over in
small (salt-grain size) yellow blobs - not spheres like with the white-
spot, more like tiny pustules. Could this be another way for velvet to
manifest itself?


Can anyone please tell me the following......

What do you think was wrong with the original corydoras?
The bleeding heart tetras?
The clown loaches?
And now the upside down catfish?

Could this have all been velvet?
Do you think I had velvet and white spot all at once?
Why does none of the medication I have used seem to have worked?

What can I do to stop this now?

Thanks for any help


Chris Nuttall

You mention nitrites and nitrates, but not ammonia levels in your water.
Would really be worth testing for this as it could be what is causing all
your problems.
Mel.


wrote in message
ups.com...
Is it White-spot, Velvet, or both?

I have three fresh water tropical tanks
One 45 litre shallow tank for growing on corydoras and Ancistrus fry
One 70 litre tank which will be home to my Ancistrus so they can breed
in peace, but currently houses an assortment of tetras.
One 170 litre heavily planted tank with a large piece of mopani wood
and 2" deep, fine gravel, which is my 'show tank' , and contains;

2 ancistrus (7 years old)
3 albino corydoras(1 year old - 1.5" long)
3 clown loaches (5 years old - 3" long)
2 upside down catfish (5 years old - 2" long)
1 whiptail catfish(7 years old) - 4 " long)
2 siamese flying foxes (2 years old - 3" long)
8 congo tetras (6 months old - 2" long)
6 bleeding heart tetras (1 year old - 1.5" long)

Nitrites 0
Nitrates 0
Ph 7.2
Gh 160
Kh 140
Temp 24 (75)

(the tap water is virtually the same as my aquarium)

I have not lost a fish in four years (and hardly had any illnesses at
all), the catfish are spawning regularly and I successfully raise the
fry and sell them. All the other fish were in peak condition and
regularly display courtship behaviour.

I feed flake food and catfish pellets once a day, with frozen
bloodworm and brineshrimp once or twice a week, and the odd garden pea
or courgette for the catfish.

I don't use CO2, the light is on a timer for 10 hours a day, and I use
a liquid plant food once a week

Waterchanges are once a week and I change roughly 12%, gently cleaning
the filter.
For several months I have not gravel vac'd much of the substrate as
all the bottom-feeding fish and numerous malasian trumpet snails keep
it pretty clean and the plants are fairly thick.
I use cold treated water to re-fill the aquarium which helps to
trigger spawning.

For several weeks I have noticed one fish or another flash against a
plant or rock - just once, every now and then. So I have been watching
closely for white-spot, but seen nothing else to signify its presence.

About four weeks ago one of my albino corydoras suddenly became ill.
She developed blood under the skin on her back and became very
listless.
I removed her to one of the tubs I use for newly hatched fry, and went
to the cupboard for my interpet anti-internal bacteria treatment. The
bottle was empty - it had all leaked out. Wondering what to do I
decided to briefly bath her in Methylene blue and then add some human
amoxicillin to the water in her tub (this was the first time I had
tried doing this - and you cannot buy fishmox in the UK)
The next day she was the same, I went out and bought some interpet
anti-internal bacteria treatment, changed her water and added the
medication. Over the next couple of days she got worse, lost all
ability to balance or swim and her skin and fins began to rot badly -
eventually I put her out of her misery using a 25% dose of top quality
Gin which I have read about on the web (again something I have never
had to do before, she died pretty peacefully 30 minutes later)

Still thinking this was a bacterial infection I treated the show tank
just to be safe.

Two weeks went by with no further illness, then I started noticing an
increase in the number of visible trumpet snails in the tank and I
realised I had not seen the clown loaches for a couple of days, then
I saw white salt-grain sized spots on the bleeding-heart tetras - just
a few, mostly on the tails.
Thinking I knew what was going on I did a 30% waterchange (warming the
added water) and dosed the tank with interpet anti white-spot, which I
got from my cupboard.
I increased the temperature to about 80 degrees, and turned off the
light.
The medicine must have been four years old and after a couple of days
it became clear it had had little or no effect. I went out and bought
a new bottle and on day four of the treatment I added a full dose of
the new stuff. By now all the bleeding heart tetras were badly covered
in salt-grain white spots and were hanging near the surface, not
eating and clamping their fins, their gills and mouths were moving
very fast, and some were developing secondary bacterial infections, I
added 250 milligrams of amoxicillin to the tank to try and combat the
infections.
The clown loaches were now out of their hiding place but looking very
ill although they had only one or two white spots each, they actually
looked more like they had got velvet, but it was very subtle.
The next morning two of the tetras were dead.Next day two more died,
and the last two died the following day.

By now I was wondering if it could all be velvet and maybe it just
looked like white-spot on the bleeding heart tetras? Could that have
been why neither dose of white spot medication seemed to help?
I did a 50% water change and added a carbon filter for 24 hours, the
next day I did a 30% water change, removed the carbon and treated the
tank for velvet (again using interpet product)
The clown loaches were listless, not eating, not moving around much
and by now looking pretty velvety, they were breathing fast, and lying
around on the gravel.
They also had a couple of the white-spots each here and there.
Two days later and two of them were dead.
As I write this the last one is lying on the gravel upside down
looking as though it will die. It is four days since I added the
velvet meds, I have just done a 50% waterchange and thoroughly vac'd
the gravel (I read on the web that by removing as many spores from the
gravel as possible you help to halt the progress of the parasite -
makes sense once you think of it)
I have re-filled the tank using warm water and added a half-strength
dose of velvet medication

Up til now none of the other fish have been affected at all, however
one (not both) of my upside down catfish is now covered all over in
small (salt-grain size) yellow blobs - not spheres like with the white-
spot, more like tiny pustules. Could this be another way for velvet to
manifest itself?


Can anyone please tell me the following......

What do you think was wrong with the original corydoras?
The bleeding heart tetras?
The clown loaches?
And now the upside down catfish?

Could this have all been velvet?
Do you think I had velvet and white spot all at once?
Why does none of the medication I have used seem to have worked?

What can I do to stop this now?

Thanks for any help


Chris Nuttall

I'll give you my opinions... This sounds like a bacterial infection to
me. For one thing, White Spot Disease (ICK), contrary to popular opinion,
does not exist in a "dormant state in most tanks", ready to "spring" when
conditions are right, at least not for long periods anyway. It's a protozoan
organism (and does not exist as "spores", nor is it present in air) and it
dies off unless it finds a host and can complete/continue its life cycle. So
unless you added some fish that had come into contact with it or allowed
something in the tank that had been exposed to it in another tank you should
not have White Spot in your tank, after all this time. My fish all "flash"
or rub against things *from time to time* (doing it only once in a while is
normal) and I do not expect to see White Spot any time soon. Healthy fish
are normally resistant to White Spot disease. The fin rot and the blood
under the skin of the fish that you mentioned also strongly indicate a
bacterial problem (IMO) and bacteria DO hang around dormant in tanks (and
indeed are everywhere) waiting for the right conditions to "spring" and
usually that means when your fish, for some reason (that you may or may not
be aware of) are experiencing weakened immune systems (due to some type of
stress or dietary deficiency, or perhaps just old age). I have had a single
fish in my tank become afflicted by bacteria and show symptoms exactly as
you describe, moved it to a hospital tank, treated it with antibiotics
unsuccessfully and watched it decline, lose its fins/scales and eventually
die, without any of the other fish from the same tank being affected at all.
I've found it very difficult to treat a fish successfully in these
instances, once the bacteria has really gotten an advantage. One very
important thing to do is to get any sick fish out of the main tank and into
a hospital tank ASAP, because a sick fish can be a reservoir for a large
number of bacteria, which can overwhelm the immune systems of the healthier
fish if left in the tank. This is why it is so important to not ever let a
fish die in the main tank (the bacteria are released when the fish dies). In
other words it can all start with a single weakened fish. One thing you
posted that sticks in my mind is that you use cold water for your water
changes. That is something I am very careful to avoid. I'd prefer it be a
little warmer rather than colder. Sudden cooling really stresses fish and
can weaken their immune systems. In fact when fish ARE exposed to White Spot
disease, sudden cooling can impair their ability to resist it. Water
temperature is one thing I don't fool around with. Another thing that comes
to mind is that your nitrate level is zero. I realize you have a lot of
plants, but zero nitrate? Are you sure your nitrifying bacteria haven't been
killed off somehow? If so, the plants would surely reduce nitrate to zero in
a short time. But I may be off base here.
Prevention is the best cure, and your fishes own immune system is their
best health insurance. So what I do is I try to do all I can to not stress
them; I try to avoid temperature or pH swings, keep the dissolved oxygen
level high, try to keep everything rock steady, and I make sure they're
getting everything in their diet that they should get. Keep my hands out of
and away from the tank (frightened fish are stressed) and things like that.
I am certainly no expert and I can't say for sure what happened to your
fish, but there are some sites that have very good information on fish
diseases, and maybe I've given you some ideas that will help. One particular
site that is a favorite of mine is at
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/index.html and perhaps you can find some
information there that will help you more.

Fedor


wrote in message
ups.com...
Is it White-spot, Velvet, or both?

I have three fresh water tropical tanks
One 45 litre shallow tank for growing on corydoras and Ancistrus fry
One 70 litre tank which will be home to my Ancistrus so they can breed
in peace, but currently houses an assortment of tetras.
One 170 litre heavily planted tank with a large piece of mopani wood
and 2" deep, fine gravel, which is my 'show tank' , and contains;

2 ancistrus (7 years old)
3 albino corydoras(1 year old - 1.5" long)
3 clown loaches (5 years old - 3" long)
2 upside down catfish (5 years old - 2" long)
1 whiptail catfish(7 years old) - 4 " long)
2 siamese flying foxes (2 years old - 3" long)
8 congo tetras (6 months old - 2" long)
6 bleeding heart tetras (1 year old - 1.5" long)

Nitrites 0
Nitrates 0
Ph 7.2
Gh 160
Kh 140
Temp 24 (75)

(the tap water is virtually the same as my aquarium)

I have not lost a fish in four years (and hardly had any illnesses at
all), the catfish are spawning regularly and I successfully raise the
fry and sell them. All the other fish were in peak condition and
regularly display courtship behaviour.

I feed flake food and catfish pellets once a day, with frozen
bloodworm and brineshrimp once or twice a week, and the odd garden pea
or courgette for the catfish.

I don't use CO2, the light is on a timer for 10 hours a day, and I use
a liquid plant food once a week

Waterchanges are once a week and I change roughly 12%, gently cleaning
the filter.
For several months I have not gravel vac'd much of the substrate as
all the bottom-feeding fish and numerous malasian trumpet snails keep
it pretty clean and the plants are fairly thick.
I use cold treated water to re-fill the aquarium which helps to
trigger spawning.

For several weeks I have noticed one fish or another flash against a
plant or rock - just once, every now and then. So I have been watching
closely for white-spot, but seen nothing else to signify its presence.

About four weeks ago one of my albino corydoras suddenly became ill.
She developed blood under the skin on her back and became very
listless.
I removed her to one of the tubs I use for newly hatched fry, and went
to the cupboard for my interpet anti-internal bacteria treatment. The
bottle was empty - it had all leaked out. Wondering what to do I
decided to briefly bath her in Methylene blue and then add some human
amoxicillin to the water in her tub (this was the first time I had
tried doing this - and you cannot buy fishmox in the UK)
The next day she was the same, I went out and bought some interpet
anti-internal bacteria treatment, changed her water and added the
medication. Over the next couple of days she got worse, lost all
ability to balance or swim and her skin and fins began to rot badly -
eventually I put her out of her misery using a 25% dose of top quality
Gin which I have read about on the web (again something I have never
had to do before, she died pretty peacefully 30 minutes later)

Still thinking this was a bacterial infection I treated the show tank
just to be safe.

Two weeks went by with no further illness, then I started noticing an
increase in the number of visible trumpet snails in the tank and I
realised I had not seen the clown loaches for a couple of days, then
I saw white salt-grain sized spots on the bleeding-heart tetras - just
a few, mostly on the tails.
Thinking I knew what was going on I did a 30% waterchange (warming the
added water) and dosed the tank with interpet anti white-spot, which I
got from my cupboard.
I increased the temperature to about 80 degrees, and turned off the
light.
The medicine must have been four years old and after a couple of days
it became clear it had had little or no effect. I went out and bought
a new bottle and on day four of the treatment I added a full dose of
the new stuff. By now all the bleeding heart tetras were badly covered
in salt-grain white spots and were hanging near the surface, not
eating and clamping their fins, their gills and mouths were moving
very fast, and some were developing secondary bacterial infections, I
added 250 milligrams of amoxicillin to the tank to try and combat the
infections.
The clown loaches were now out of their hiding place but looking very
ill although they had only one or two white spots each, they actually
looked more like they had got velvet, but it was very subtle.
The next morning two of the tetras were dead.Next day two more died,
and the last two died the following day.

By now I was wondering if it could all be velvet and maybe it just
looked like white-spot on the bleeding heart tetras? Could that have
been why neither dose of white spot medication seemed to help?
I did a 50% water change and added a carbon filter for 24 hours, the
next day I did a 30% water change, removed the carbon and treated the
tank for velvet (again using interpet product)
The clown loaches were listless, not eating, not moving around much
and by now looking pretty velvety, they were breathing fast, and lying
around on the gravel.
They also had a couple of the white-spots each here and there.
Two days later and two of them were dead.
As I write this the last one is lying on the gravel upside down
looking as though it will die. It is four days since I added the
velvet meds, I have just done a 50% waterchange and thoroughly vac'd
the gravel (I read on the web that by removing as many spores from the
gravel as possible you help to halt the progress of the parasite -
makes sense once you think of it)
I have re-filled the tank using warm water and added a half-strength
dose of velvet medication

Up til now none of the other fish have been affected at all, however
one (not both) of my upside down catfish is now covered all over in
small (salt-grain size) yellow blobs - not spheres like with the white-
spot, more like tiny pustules. Could this be another way for velvet to
manifest itself?


Can anyone please tell me the following......

What do you think was wrong with the original corydoras?
The bleeding heart tetras?
The clown loaches?
And now the upside down catfish?

Could this have all been velvet?
Do you think I had velvet and white spot all at once?
Why does none of the medication I have used seem to have worked?

What can I do to stop this now?

Thanks for any help


Chris Nuttall

I just did some checking; I'm not that familiar with Velvet, but it
seems the spots on fish are a golden color rather than white... Otherwise it
does seem to somewhat match the symptoms you describe. I still think there
was a bacterial problem as well though.

Here's a link for Velvet Disease information:
http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/disease/p/velvet.htm

One thing the site says that I question: "Like Ich, Oödinium is present in
most commercial tanks"; I don't know much about Oödinium (the Velvet
parasite) but every scientific report I've read about Ich says it dies off
if it can't find a host... Maybe in COMMERCIAL tanks it's present, because
they're always introducing new fish into them. And as for Oödinium (Velvet)
the same article also says "They must find a host within 24 hours, or die."
So again I ask, if it's in your tank, where did it come from?

Fedor


wrote in message
ups.com...
Is it White-spot, Velvet, or both?

I have three fresh water tropical tanks
One 45 litre shallow tank for growing on corydoras and Ancistrus fry
One 70 litre tank which will be home to my Ancistrus so they can breed
in peace, but currently houses an assortment of tetras.
One 170 litre heavily planted tank with a large piece of mopani wood
and 2" deep, fine gravel, which is my 'show tank' , and contains;

2 ancistrus (7 years old)
3 albino corydoras(1 year old - 1.5" long)
3 clown loaches (5 years old - 3" long)
2 upside down catfish (5 years old - 2" long)
1 whiptail catfish(7 years old) - 4 " long)
2 siamese flying foxes (2 years old - 3" long)
8 congo tetras (6 months old - 2" long)
6 bleeding heart tetras (1 year old - 1.5" long)

Nitrites 0
Nitrates 0
Ph 7.2
Gh 160
Kh 140
Temp 24 (75)

(the tap water is virtually the same as my aquarium)

I have not lost a fish in four years (and hardly had any illnesses at
all), the catfish are spawning regularly and I successfully raise the
fry and sell them. All the other fish were in peak condition and
regularly display courtship behaviour.

I feed flake food and catfish pellets once a day, with frozen
bloodworm and brineshrimp once or twice a week, and the odd garden pea
or courgette for the catfish.

I don't use CO2, the light is on a timer for 10 hours a day, and I use
a liquid plant food once a week

Waterchanges are once a week and I change roughly 12%, gently cleaning
the filter.
For several months I have not gravel vac'd much of the substrate as
all the bottom-feeding fish and numerous malasian trumpet snails keep
it pretty clean and the plants are fairly thick.
I use cold treated water to re-fill the aquarium which helps to
trigger spawning.

For several weeks I have noticed one fish or another flash against a
plant or rock - just once, every now and then. So I have been watching
closely for white-spot, but seen nothing else to signify its presence.

About four weeks ago one of my albino corydoras suddenly became ill.
She developed blood under the skin on her back and became very
listless.
I removed her to one of the tubs I use for newly hatched fry, and went
to the cupboard for my interpet anti-internal bacteria treatment. The
bottle was empty - it had all leaked out. Wondering what to do I
decided to briefly bath her in Methylene blue and then add some human
amoxicillin to the water in her tub (this was the first time I had
tried doing this - and you cannot buy fishmox in the UK)
The next day she was the same, I went out and bought some interpet
anti-internal bacteria treatment, changed her water and added the
medication. Over the next couple of days she got worse, lost all
ability to balance or swim and her skin and fins began to rot badly -
eventually I put her out of her misery using a 25% dose of top quality
Gin which I have read about on the web (again something I have never
had to do before, she died pretty peacefully 30 minutes later)

Still thinking this was a bacterial infection I treated the show tank
just to be safe.

Two weeks went by with no further illness, then I started noticing an
increase in the number of visible trumpet snails in the tank and I
realised I had not seen the clown loaches for a couple of days, then
I saw white salt-grain sized spots on the bleeding-heart tetras - just
a few, mostly on the tails.
Thinking I knew what was going on I did a 30% waterchange (warming the
added water) and dosed the tank with interpet anti white-spot, which I
got from my cupboard.
I increased the temperature to about 80 degrees, and turned off the
light.
The medicine must have been four years old and after a couple of days
it became clear it had had little or no effect. I went out and bought
a new bottle and on day four of the treatment I added a full dose of
the new stuff. By now all the bleeding heart tetras were badly covered
in salt-grain white spots and were hanging near the surface, not
eating and clamping their fins, their gills and mouths were moving
very fast, and some were developing secondary bacterial infections, I
added 250 milligrams of amoxicillin to the tank to try and combat the
infections.
The clown loaches were now out of their hiding place but looking very
ill although they had only one or two white spots each, they actually
looked more like they had got velvet, but it was very subtle.
The next morning two of the tetras were dead.Next day two more died,
and the last two died the following day.

By now I was wondering if it could all be velvet and maybe it just
looked like white-spot on the bleeding heart tetras? Could that have
been why neither dose of white spot medication seemed to help?
I did a 50% water change and added a carbon filter for 24 hours, the
next day I did a 30% water change, removed the carbon and treated the
tank for velvet (again using interpet product)
The clown loaches were listless, not eating, not moving around much
and by now looking pretty velvety, they were breathing fast, and lying
around on the gravel.
They also had a couple of the white-spots each here and there.
Two days later and two of them were dead.
As I write this the last one is lying on the gravel upside down
looking as though it will die. It is four days since I added the
velvet meds, I have just done a 50% waterchange and thoroughly vac'd
the gravel (I read on the web that by removing as many spores from the
gravel as possible you help to halt the progress of the parasite -
makes sense once you think of it)
I have re-filled the tank using warm water and added a half-strength
dose of velvet medication

Up til now none of the other fish have been affected at all, however
one (not both) of my upside down catfish is now covered all over in
small (salt-grain size) yellow blobs - not spheres like with the white-
spot, more like tiny pustules. Could this be another way for velvet to
manifest itself?


Can anyone please tell me the following......

What do you think was wrong with the original corydoras?
The bleeding heart tetras?
The clown loaches?
And now the upside down catfish?

Could this have all been velvet?
Do you think I had velvet and white spot all at once?
Why does none of the medication I have used seem to have worked?

What can I do to stop this now?

Thanks for any help


Chris Nuttall

Thanks for the reply - i had not considered that it could all be
bacterial

I am going to remove the upside down catfish and treat elsewhere as it
is now the only sick fish left alive.
It now has a yellow dusting on its flanks as well as the spots - i am
at aloss really with so many different symptoms all at once.

By the way the zero nitrates is indeed a mistake, they are about
30ppm.

chris

wrote in message
oups.com...
Thanks for the reply - i had not considered that it could all be
bacterial

I am going to remove the upside down catfish and treat elsewhere as it
is now the only sick fish left alive.
It now has a yellow dusting on its flanks as well as the spots - i am
at aloss really with so many different symptoms all at once.

By the way the zero nitrates is indeed a mistake, they are about
30ppm.
===========================
You can bring in parasites on new aquarium plants. Did you happen to buy a
new plant?
--

RM....
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö

YES!
i added some new plants recently - not too long before the first fish
got ill - do you think that's it?

Having read that ick and velvet only survive a few hours or a couple
of days at most without a host fish i had discounted that idea, the
LFS keeps aquarium plants in shallow water-filled trays which are
unheated, not sure if the lack of heat would kill the parasites or
simply slow down thier life cycle so they last longer.

which parasites could it be?

chris

(The upside down catfish is hanging in there with his yellow spots and
dusty areas, not gilling too fast and not listless at all.)

I'm not sure that it is ALL bacterial, but the fin rot and bloody
patches certainly indicate bacterial activity. I read your later posts
also... The gold spots and dusty patches that you mention do sound like
Velvet (I have never had it in a tank but I have had White Spot once and I
do not want it again; all I know about Velvet is what I read online about
it). Bacteria are always present, and if a fish is weakened by a parasitic
invasion, the bacteria will use the opportunity to also invade. Most all
"pests" as such are opportunistic in this way. This is why the best defense
against such attacks is to do what you can to constantly keep the fishes
immune systems strong and keep the fish as healthy as possible. Plants
should only be purchased from tanks that do not have fish, and it sounds
like that was the case with yours, but perhaps they had been in contact with
infested fish or tanks at some point before you got them? I don't know, it's
just a thought... But once your tanks/fish have been healthy for a period
and nothing new has been added, there should be no Velvet or White Spot
parasites in your tank (or course there will always be bacteria). The only
way to be safe is to quarantine all new additions (fish and plants) for
longer than the parasites life cycle. Since I do not have a convenient way
to do that, my practice is to avoid introducing anything new into my tank,
no matter how much I'd like to. When I do have to for some reason, I'm
always worried about it. The one time when I did get White Spot (many years
ago) I had added two Plecostomus catfish. My tank is not planted anymore so
I don't have that to be concerned with. One thing you can do in the future
is to remove any sickly acting fish immediately to a hospital tank before
the bacteria can spread, and you can always expect a bacterial attack at
some point as the fish is stressed/weakened by parasites or other maladies.
The number of bacteria in the water has a direct relationship on whether the
fish can fight it off or not. Too many bacteria and they become overwhelmed.
It is also important to know and understand the life cycles of parasites and
to be able to identify them. A big part of my enjoyment of aquaria has been
in reading about fish diseases, parasites, anatomy, behavior and other
scientific and technical materials on web sites and it has also been handy
to know these things at times. I save web articles on my PC that I think may
be useful in the future, especially about diseases, in case I may encounter
any and have need to identify them and attempt to effect a cure. When you
think about the threats from bacteria and parasites, combined with keeping
fish in such small close-quartered environments as our tanks are, it is
almost asking for trouble, in some ways. One must be diligent and even then
things can happen.

Fedor



wrote in message
oups.com...
Thanks for the reply - i had not considered that it could all be
bacterial

I am going to remove the upside down catfish and treat elsewhere as it
is now the only sick fish left alive.
It now has a yellow dusting on its flanks as well as the spots - i am
at aloss really with so many different symptoms all at once.

By the way the zero nitrates is indeed a mistake, they are about
30ppm.

chris

Fedor,


Thanks for your replies - it is good to have someone elses thoughts
when you are unsure what is right or wrong.
i have posted this on yahoo groups but everyone there only seems
interested in arguing!

I am begining to form an idea of how it may all have gone wrong

The tank was overstocked, i never cleaned all the gravel, and i
regularly added cold water to get the catfish to spawn.
These things together would have had an effect on the fish even though
they all looked great, then i added some plants, some of which i know
were from a regular customer at the LFS who has a CO2 setup at home,
he brings in plants when he has too many and the guy at the fish shop
sells them (actually he gave me a load to keep me sweet because i
supply him with catfish) anyway, i think i remember him saying that
the guy had just brought the plants in recently - this would mean that
parasites may have still been ailve on them or in their water.

I think that the corydoras died of an infection called red pest,
possibly brought on the the attack of parasites, the others developed
parasite infestations later and their bacterial infections were as a
result of this.

The thing is now i need to get rid of the parasites which i believe to
be velvet and white spot at the same time. Do you know of a treatment
for both together?
I have read about copper which is used for ridding a tank of snails,
but i dont like the idea of it, it is a poison. And it would damage my
plants.
There is also methylene blue but it will have side effects too and i
don't know how effective it is.
Like you i subscribe to the idea of minimal intervention, letting
nature (such as it is in a fish tank!) look after itself, so i may
just keep on removing sick fishes, changing the water, cleaning the
gravel etc etc and hoping the fishes iminutiy in the main tank takes
care of it


If anyone does know a way of dealing with white spot and velvet at the
same time please share it with me


Thanks


chris

wrote in message
ups.com...
YES!
i added some new plants recently - not too long before the first fish
got ill - do you think that's it?

It sure sounds like it to me. I quarantine plants and treat them with
QuickCure or AquaSol.

Having read that ick and velvet only survive a few hours or a couple
of days at most without a host fish i had discounted that idea, the
LFS keeps aquarium plants in shallow water-filled trays which are
unheated, not sure if the lack of heat would kill the parasites or
simply slow down thier life cycle so they last longer.

It would slow the life cycle but they'd still need a host to survive. Are
there any fish at all in the trays?

which parasites could it be?

That I couldn't tell you.


chris

(The upside down catfish is hanging in there with his yellow spots and
dusty areas, not gilling too fast and not listless at all.)

I hope you're treating them with something for parasites?!?!?! I like
QuickCure but it may not be safe for any loaches in your tank.
--

RM....
Zone 6. Middle TN USA
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö